Katherine Hinchey

Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder talk to Katherine Hinchey. Katherine is an attorney with the Public Defender's Office for the 4th Judicial Circuit in Jacksonville, Florida. She specializes in representing clients charged with sex crimes and talks about the challenges that are unique to her work. We also discuss some of the unique challenges faced by women lawyers working in the criminal justice system.

These conversations are not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse, and incarceration.

Transcript

Hinchey Transcript.mp3

Chris Moser [00:00:03] This is trauma and justice. This is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma and the justice system. We also talk about the ways that law school and training have aided or failed the people we interview and ought to be improved. These conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic history should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. 

Alison Debelder [00:00:35] I'm Alison DeBelder. 

Chris Moser [00:00:36] And I'm Chris Moser. 

Alison Debelder [00:00:38] Our guest today is Katherine Hinchey. She graduated from Florida State University College of Law in 2003 and then started working for the public defender's office in Jacksonville, Florida, as an assistant public defender. She left in 2009 to work at the Regional Conflict Counsel's Office for the 5th District in Daytona Beach. Katherine returned to Jacksonville in 2014 to work at Regional Conflict Counsel's Office in Jacksonville and rejoined the public defender's office in Jacksonville in twenty eighteen. She now handles mostly sex cases. She spent her entire professional career doing criminal defense work for indigent defendants. Katherine lives in Jacksonville with her husband, who's also a lawyer, and her seven year old son, who is not Katherine. Welcome. Thank you for being here. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:01:29] Thank you for having me. 

Alison Debelder [00:01:31] So I do obviously want to get into the conversation about trauma. But before we do that, how did you end up coming to practice criminal law? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:01:41] Oh, good question. Probably from being at FSU. I took the Criminal Law Clinic with Professor Larry Krieger and I was an intern at the public defender's office in Quincy, Florida, which is super tiny. And I got to do actual work. When I was there, they gave me a caseload. I had three jury trials and it was the first time in law school that I actually found something I really wanted to do. I thought it was interesting. I liked being around people. I loved my colleagues. And once I had that experience, I realized I'm going to join the public defenders office somewhere. And I finally have found an aspect of the law that is pulling me towards it. 

Alison Debelder [00:02:26] I suspect I might know the answer to this question since we had we went to the same law school around the same time. But did you ever get any specific training in how to deal with upsetting facts and difficult conversations before you started at the public defender's office? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:02:47] Oh, definitely not. I don't really remember any any kind of conversation about that sort of thing. I remember in Professor Krieger's class, we talked about client interaction a little bit like how to, you know, learning about the public defender side because it was divided between people who were interested in state attorneys and people who are interested in being public defenders. And I do remember talking a little bit about filing motions to dismiss and having to have your client sign it and how you had to communicate. But other than that, I mean, I don't remember any of that aspect. 

Alison Debelder [00:03:20] Did you have any other training for any other jobs or things that informed your skill set in dealing with tough topics? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:03:29] When I was in college, I was a rape crisis counselor, so I did go through the training, which was actually pretty intensive. It was over six or seven weeks. But once a week I go with other people for my school and we went through the training and then we were not licensed but active counselors, I guess. 

Alison Debelder [00:03:48] How did you find that? How did you get hooked up with doing that work? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:03:52] Gosh, I don't remember. I remember just I went to a small college and I remember that that was something that other women were doing. There might have been someone I knew that had done it. And I mean, all you had to do was sign up. It was in the community. It wasn't on campus. And you could take the counseling or the training program to be a counselor. 

Alison Debelder [00:04:18] And so what was the training? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:04:19] Yeah, and what was your major? What was your major and where did you go to undergrad? I went to Colby College, which is a small liberal arts college in Waterville, Maine, and I was a history major. And the training it was I like remembering this is we're talking about it. I don't think I've thought about this in decades, but it was intensive. It was all about let me say, it's focused solely on someone who's claiming to be a victim of sexual assault. And it was about how you speak to them, about what happened to them. It was listening techniques. Now, there wasn't a whole lot about how we felt about it. It was more focused on how are you able to help them discuss what's happened and discuss what they may want. And it was the emergency portion of it. When they were going to go to the hospital, they would call you and you could possibly go to the hospital with them or or talk to them through the process of what was about to happen to them. And then no further contact. You weren't going to be seeing them after that night. 

Alison Debelder [00:05:19] And did you have cases? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:05:21] I had like one or two. You had to carry a pager around when you were on duty. I mean, this was like in nineteen ninety five. So they paged you and then you would call back whatever the number was and then you talk to them. And I think I got paged a few times. It was nerve wracking to carry around a pager all weekend and wonder if you were going to be called. So the triage that you did was as an undergrad when you were around early twenties. Right. Even I mean, I think I did this. Yeah, I was probably twenty. I think I do this mostly my junior year. Was it very specific about instructing them perhaps on how to preserve evidence? Was it in that vein or was it 

Alison Debelder [00:06:04] really just a 

Katherine Hinchey [00:06:05] support system for the person to encourage them to 

Alison Debelder [00:06:10] follow through or 

Katherine Hinchey [00:06:12] it was completely support? It had nothing to do with the law, at least in my college mind. And no, it wasn't about following through or calling the police. It was just talking to them to make sure. Are they safe? If they're not, here's what you can do. Do you need someone to come to you and help you get to a safe place? Do you need a family member called? Do you just want to talk about what happened? But we were not ever going to be speaking to law enforcement or anything of that nature. And we were not ever told to call law enforcement unless they specifically said, I'm in active danger, call the police for me or something along those lines. 

Alison Debelder [00:06:53] I think it's interesting that you say that carrying the pager was really nervous making. Right, because it speaks to the fact that when you're doing work of any kind that involves these huge emotions, these traumatic or humiliating experiences, that it's not just when the big exciting thing is happening. Happening right then, you know, it's not just when you're in trial in front of a jury. It's just sometimes the potential of something happening. Right. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:07:25] The anticipation. Yeah, totally. And that's been true throughout all my legal career. Just thinking about what you have to do and worrying about it, that is exactly that, which I've never really thought about that before. But it was just holding this pager and wondering if you were going to have to switch from being a pretty carefree college student to talking to some woman who just had something horrible happen. 

Alison Debelder [00:07:49] Right. Interesting. So how about once you started work, have you ever had any formal training on how to deal with this stuff? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:07:59] No, no, not at all. 

Alison Debelder [00:08:01] What about informal? Do you have any recollections of, like, conversations that you've had when people told you how you were supposed to manage this stuff? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:08:11] Yeah, I think there's I think there's been a lot of those types of conversations with my colleagues, because it's been I feel I've been so lucky with the places I've worked to have these great groups of friends who do the same work. My first supervisor back at the Quincy Public Defender's Office, Nina was an amazing woman who took so much extra time to talk to me. And I can't say that we specifically said, like, what do I do when I feel this way? But she was just very intuitive about how you would speak to a client or a family member. A lot of really good foundation training on how to deal with a difficult state attorney and how not to let it get under your skin. If you felt like they weren't being fair to you or the client or something like that. And those are things I often think about her her demeanor was she was one of the most perfectly professional and calm women I've ever encountered. And she always seemed to know the right way to handle something, which was sometimes not to handle it, to just kind of step back and say, I'm going to wait and see how this plays out. 

Alison Debelder [00:09:22] Yeah, she she was a year or two ahead of me. And so I remember her being really kind to me when I was starting off as an intern, too, even though we weren't in the same office. And it puts me in mind of one of my experiences when I first started, which was telling a person I was really nervous about whatever the thing was. I was filled with anxiety and I remember being told to take off my skirt. And deal with it, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:09:51] oh, my goodness, 

Alison Debelder [00:09:53] like I was told to be a man 

Katherine Hinchey [00:09:55] that's less than ideal. 

Alison Debelder [00:09:57] Yeah. And I said something about, you know, but I don't know what I'm doing or there's an actual reason I feel incompetent because I am not competent at this point. And his advice was, nobody knows what they're doing. They're all just faking it. You have to figure out how to fake it, too. And I mean, I don't know that it was bad advice for me that day. Right. There wasn't I couldn't do anything more. I had to walk in and do it. So I do think people are faking it a lot of the time. But it's a little juxtaposition in mentoring attitudes. So before we get to specific cases or anything, did you ever experience what you might consider direct trauma or specifically traumatic experience as part of your work? And the kinds of things I'm thinking about are being physically attacked or threatened by a client or having a client expose themselves to you or propositioned you had a suicidal client or anything like that? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:11:05] Oh, all. All but not physically attacked, but all those other things I had. Stuff happens so routinely. I and I know this is why we're having this kind of conversation that I almost don't think about it anymore, because I remember the first time a client, when I was brand new misdemeanor attorney here, writing me these long, lengthy love letters. And I just I didn't know what to do. I didn't know if, you know, what I was supposed to say or respond or acknowledge. And then, unfortunately, the exposure of masturbation just happens routinely where every place I've been, it's happened. 

Alison Debelder [00:11:46] Let me stop you there. So to go back to the love letters. So what did you do? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:11:50] Do you remember what it was really? Well, I remember the clients so well. I remember his name, which I won't say, but he was so mean to me in person. He was just awful. The kind of quintessential he didn't want me as his lawyer. He didn't like that I was I was young. I was probably what, twenty seven or twenty eight. And I have always looked kind of extra young, so I think he thought I was nineteen probably and he just was so dismissive of me like what could I tell him. Why was I coming into the room to talk to him. And he'd say not just mean things like you don't know what you're doing, it's all your fault I'm here. And then I turn around and get these letters professing his love about how he couldn't stop thinking about me. And he he wanted us to get married. He couldn't wait for him to be released. And then he he'd come find me at my house. And it was just so off putting the dichotomy between the two. I was like, what do they hate me? Does he love me? You know? Then of course, it's my client. So I don't want him to do either. I just want to get get his case over with. So I think I finally told her, I'm sure I told my friends, but I can't remember who my I guess my mentor was, Al Chipperfield. But I don't think I ever told him about this because I think I was too embarrassed. I think I was sharing it with the women attorneys. And I just finally sort of got the advice to just. I just told him to stop and then I talked to someone else, so I talked to an older female attorney guy, I want to say maybe it was Shelly or somebody that Michelle just somebody that was like part of my world. And they just told me that it's not appropriate. And do whatever you think is best is sort of what I got out of it. 

Alison Debelder [00:13:42] Yeah, I'm trying to think if I ever because I think we all got those right. Chris, you I'm sure you've gotten love letters. Yes, I have. Yeah. So you get these weird things, but I don't think I ever asked somebody. I think I probably just showed them to somebody. You know, I remember people showing me poems they got and I remember talking I have a specific memory of one of the homicide attorneys who was getting love letters from death row or something. And we would read them like but I don't think there was ever any strategizing about what was the appropriate thing to do or stay in these situations. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:14:20] And I think we laughed about them a lot, like it was funny. And you laugh, but it's not that funny. I mean, it's sort of like the way we deal with a lot of things is just to make a joke out of it. And everybody knows what you're joking about. So it's nice because you feel like you're not alone. But you also it doesn't help you represent the client at the next court date. 

Alison Debelder [00:14:41] Right. Like if you were a dentist, I'm assuming if you're a dentist and your patient comes in and starts this kind of inappropriate stuff, I feel like the dentist would stop and say this cannot go on. But also part of that is that the dentist can kick you out and has have other patients. I think part of what you're describing is specific to public defenders who this person part of the difficulty in the relationship like with this guy, the love hate guy, is he didn't hire you. He didn't get a say in who his lawyer was. And maybe he didn't want a young woman lawyer, but he didn't get to choose. Right. Right. And you don't get to choose him either. Right? You're kind of stuck with each other, which starts things off in a weird way. Like to set those boundaries. Yes, for sure. And also, like you said, all those things have happened to you at every job. It happened so much. You I don't know that you can sit down and have a feeling about every one of these instances or you wouldn't have any time to do your work, right? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:15:51] Yes. Oh, for sure. If the dead in your emotions to be a public defender. Dikes is not in a bad way. 

Alison Debelder [00:15:59] Well, it would you have to be nice to just be in tears all day or the corner shaking, right? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:16:07] Well, I was just reflecting on, like, particular people and their intent, and some of them were dysfunctionally endearing. And then some of them were creepy. And some of them, you know, they were probably. That's how they learned. How to feel things from their dysfunctional, crazy parents and like that whole spectrum of stuff is what I was sort of thinking about and then also not to go, oh, because I have a tendency to do this. Is it is there a way to say thank you? Like, here's this drawing, here's this poem. It's like a thank you card. So there were some some benign this to it to but all of it's lumped together and then you go talk to someone and they're like, oh I don't know. And that I guess is what I was responding to. 

Alison Debelder [00:17:03] Very true. Yeah. And also, you're not there. You're not there to solve misogyny, right? You're not there to solve sexism, you're there, you have a job to do. Like I remember asking, I think Pat McGuinness to go talk to a client of mine who had a good offer and a terrible case and was a young guy, right. Who was having trouble wrapping his head around going to prison, agreeing to go to prison for a long time at a young age. But it was probably in his best interest and. I think Patrick went and spoke with him and he had some things that he would say to people, man to man, right. About the things that you have to look forward to and what age you'll be when you get out. And it was a conversation that I 100 percent could not have as a whatever. Twenty five year old woman. I remember being upset about that. Right. That this situation, it was really helpful to call in an older man. And that is for all kinds of crummy societal reasons that have to do with misogyny and have to do with gender roles. But what I had to decide was that I couldn't solve those societal problems, right. What my client needed was to have this my client, who lives in a sexist world, in a sexist judicial system, needed a Pat McGinnis to come and talk to him. And I just had to accept that and that I wasn't there to solve that. And I think that that's also what's going on with all of these things with clients, with male clients or whatever, who write love letters and do this stuff. You're not really there to solve what's underpinning all of that. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:18:59] Can I say something, though? I think you probably did. Yeah, take some. Of what he was offering. Just by sheer observation and then using it in the way that you could use it, so maybe you couldn't say it man to man, but the next time you could say this means you're going to get out when you're thirty five. My father had two kids when he was thirty 

Alison Debelder [00:19:23] five or I don't know, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:19:24] just in a certain kind of way. You could appropriate it, which I hope that male attorneys appropriate things that we say and do as well. 

Alison Debelder [00:19:35] Yeah. And some of its age. Right. I mean I think the way you interact with folks now for me anyway, doing mitigation work, I think that people just accept me differently because I'm not in my 20s. I probably seem like somebody's mom, which is what I am. And you have more experience, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:19:56] more lived experience, so you're also, I think, better equipped to deal with some of those things, extraneous things other than the legal case 

Alison Debelder [00:20:06] part. So I don't feel like we ever talked about the exposure thing. Yeah, I feel like we've everybody's had that happen. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:20:20] I have not I have not had that happen. Really? Nope. Oh, wow. I could see a direction it could happen, but I never was kind of in a captive audience way. Experience that. And I honestly don't know how I would handle it. 

Alison Debelder [00:20:41] When was the first time that ever happened to you, Katherine? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:20:45] Oh, man, I don't even remember the first time I know I can think of the more recent ones. More than the first time, I mean, I do remember I remember hearing about it before it happened to me back in county court here when a coworker came back from the jail and said that a man had started masturbating in front of her and she was just really shocked. She didn't know what to do. And so then it's it. And the reaction from everyone is like, oh, yeah, well, that just happens. And that's always bothered me so much that it's just sort of expected that you will figure out how to deal with it and that it's not a big deal. And and a lot of people in response to that, because I've talked about it more often now, because now that I'm back at the DA's office, there are a lot of younger attorneys and they are just sort of dealing with this stuff themselves. And it doesn't mean that you want to call the jail and get your client in trouble or arrested. That's not what we're talking about. That's unless it was some extreme situation where there was I don't know, I don't even want to go down that route. That's not what I mean. It's just sort of like that's not appropriate. And you don't have to sit in a room with someone who has this penis out. That's not our job. Nobody has ever said because you're a public defender, you must therefore stay in this teeny tiny jail cell with a man who thinks it's OK to masturbate in front of you. 

Alison Debelder [00:22:18] What do you tell people, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:22:19] I tell them to immediately leave the room and just get yourself out of there. Don't try to talk to someone or tell them it's inappropriate. And then what I've started doing is I freeze out my client. I mean, our ethical responsibility is to communicate with our clients about what's going on in their case. And if they're going to act inappropriately, then I wait until the last possible moment when it's right to talk to them again and make a point of leaving, not answering their phone calls, not Polly calling them or going to the jail to see them. And then after an appropriate period of time has passed, I talk to them and tell them I'm not going to be coming to the jail to see you. If you're going to act like that. I can communicate by letter. You can call me on the phone, but that's inappropriate. And that has usually ended the problem. But it depends on the client, because I've had I had a situation when I was at the conflict council where four or five clients in a row, every time I went to the jail, they were all masturbating in front of me. And finally a client told me that they had a contest to see who could keep me in the room the longest until I left. And so when I found that out, I just like shot all those people down and I just didn't I didn't speak to them. I just this was a repeat offender caught. They weren't going anywhere. There was like a million things to do on their cases. And I just waited it out. And eventually it got to the point where they were like, well, what, you're not going to talk to me? And I know I said, well, no, not if that's how we're going to communicate. If you want to talk about your case. Sure. And it did stop. But I mean, it was just. Disturbing. That's awful. Yeah, it was really bad. Have you ever thought about withdrawing? I mean, I see private attorneys withdraw for the littlest of reasons and never. Ever get any flack for it and without saying the particulars, 

Alison Debelder [00:24:27] just for your own mental health and 

Katherine Hinchey [00:24:29] for them to maybe find a better match because they're by their own actions, missing out on some communication, right. I don't know, I just think that might be something that with support of like supervisors and stuff, kind of a united front, because that is also just as an aside, clearly a crime, right. That is being perpetrated on you. Yeah. Technically, you are a victim of exposure. So I don't know. I just feel like maybe this is just my sentiment right now being more in academia, but just an absolute zero tolerance, almost aggressive approach to like that not being acceptable in a cultural way, you know what I mean? And everyone rallying around that. Yeah, yeah. I think that that's a there can be times that's appropriate. I feel like a lot of the struggles I have with my clients are about control. They want to control me. They want they want to tell me what to do and they don't necessarily want to listen to what I have to say. And so. Most of those clients that were doing that contest were just, you know, they're mad, they're in repeat offender or they've got their cases, they're looking at almost to a t mandatory life. And so they they want another attorney. They wanted to get rid of me and move on to somebody else. And so I do feel that's that's not how the system works. And I'm a good lawyer. I can help you if you let me. And so I chose with those clients to just. Freeze them out, ignore it, address it and move on, and it worked. I mean, that that was it. 

Alison Debelder [00:26:26] I was thinking that if you withdraw, then it's really a reward. I feel like it would reward that behavior. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:26:35] They want that they want to know that they can shock you and push push you off their case, and if as long as I think it's important, though, to make sure, I don't think there should be a policy on it in our office, I think it should be. What is your how do you feel and what's your comfort level? Right. And I was just yeah. Personally, I was just saying from my own perspective today, that is my reaction to imagining that happening to me today. Right. But I think a lot of our clients and it's interesting Alison, because now I mostly only do sex crimes and this is not happening to me. None of my sex crime clients are exposing themselves or masturbating. It's always been my, I guess, violently charged defendants, the ones who are facing a lot of time. And it's a pretty serious violent crimes in their past and that they're facing. And I just think it's because I think they want a reaction out of me and I think they want to see how far they can take it and if they can scare me and. I don't I'm not scared, I'm just unhappy with the way things are going. So if I can stop it, I'll try. But I did have a situation where I did switch a case with a male attorney because he couldn't stop masturbating and he even he actually pulled out his penis and in the interview room in court and was standing behind another one of my clients and his penis was out almost touching the head of the other client. And I was like really horrified by what I was going to do. And then I went to the jail to see him and he told me, you know, he he had promised me that he would act appropriately and then he still masturbated and then. He just finally was like, I can't help myself, and so I switched the case instead of withdrawing, I gave them one. I'm like Johnson and I switch cases and he took that case. 

Alison Debelder [00:28:45] Did he have a diagnosis or anything, was there anything that explains the behavior, like as a pathology, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:28:53] that client was actually. He was perfectly nice to me, he just couldn't. You know, by his own admission, he couldn't help it, he just he also wanted to be crazy. So I think that was part of it. He was very much hoping to be found incompetent. Like malingering. Yeah. Yeah. He was fully competent, but very in the weeds with this case. I think he he is serving life in prison, probably legitimately. And he just was trying desperately to get something else to happen for him. But it is like a powerless act, right? A desperate attempt by people with nothing to lose. Right. That perception, right? Yeah, exactly. So thinking of it that way is very healthy and mature. And it's true. That's just still shocking. Like I think most people aspiring to law school or, you know what I mean, would be horrified to hear how often that occurs even now. 

Alison Debelder [00:29:54] Well, and also also men, I'm sure they don't realize how much it happens. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:30:00] Nobody. 

Alison Debelder [00:30:03] Because it doesn't happen as much to male lawyers, I don't think I 

Katherine Hinchey [00:30:07] don't I don't really think it happens at all. I mean, I'm sure there's some isolated incidents. But but I do think, though, that the reaction you get a lot of the time when you talk about this from male attorneys is laughter like, oh, that's just that's part of the job. But it's not part of their job. It's part of our job. Right. And I do find that. They don't you know, the people in offices that I've worked at have really not taking it seriously, they don't ever they don't have this kind of conversation, like how do you feel? Do you need help? Do you how would it be better for you to talk to this client? So you're not in that position? It's always just kind of like, oh, ha ha. 

Alison Debelder [00:30:53] Well, and also, I think especially when you say, what do you need, how do you feel? I know I it didn't happen that much to me, to be honest, and I the one time I specifically remember was a client just pulled down his pants when I was there to get him to sign a blue form, which is a negotiated plea for we had reached an agreement and I had gone to the jail just to get his signature. And it was a it was some kind of violent felony, as you say, Katherine like it wasn't a sex crime or anything. And it was a frustrating case. And I remember that I was frustrated. I was looking forward to getting it resolved, which was why I was there. And so I just said inappropriate. And I remember having my finger out like a schoolmarm and I said, inappropriate. Pull up your pants, sign the paper. I'm leaving. And I didn't even leave before. I was just not going to go without the signature that I had come to get that he said he wanted to sign. And I think I just startled him and he pulled up his pants and he signed the paper. But so I do. You're right. There's always this laughter and people with these shared experiences in the office. But it would have been really interesting, like when we worked in the same office to have all of the women because we had a lot of really brilliant, capable women lawyers there with a lot of years under their belt. But I'm sure I've laughed with them about this. But I would like to know how they deal with it when they are in the room. And I'm trying to think about some of those women. And in the and I don't think they ever. Like, they didn't tell me what you told me, that you just get up and leave without talking, like I like that approach, but I'm sure everybody has different ways of dealing with it. And I'm sure that there are people with traumas in their background. Working in your office right now for sure, who not only would that be a traumatic event, but that it would be triggering if they had been victimized at other points in their life. In fact, you know, as a child, as an adult, if they had other sexual assaults, this could bring that up. And it's not fair to just ask them to. You know, man up and move on with their day. Yeah, totally. What about vicarious trauma? I'm thinking like, is there any particular piece of evidence, like a crime scene photo or 911 tapes or something that you heard in court or in deposition? That isn't something that you witnessed firsthand. Maybe something in a client's background, but that stays with you. Oh, for 

Katherine Hinchey [00:34:00] sure, I mean, I find any kind of homicide evidence photo of the of the person he's died, I get stuck in my head. I, I don't I hate it. I hate looking at them. I hate autopsy photos in particular where they're focusing on the gunshot or the knife wound. And I do remember doing a felony murder case in Daytona. And the person that had died, he was just so young and such like I mean, he's a handsome young man. He really should have had his life in front of him. And the autopsy photos still stick in my head because he was just, you know, just to see someone lying there so cold and lifeless. And it's it's just really hard. And I remember going to I guess it was probably life or death or maybe another training. 

Alison Debelder [00:35:00] Explain what life over death is. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:35:03] It's the training for people who want to be qualified as to do death cases, and it's usually like three or four days and you focus solely on that is what you're learning. And the presenter, she said before she she was showing pictures and she said, now I'm going to show you pictures of a dead body. And that's the one thing you'll never get out of your head. So if you don't want to see them right now, look away. And that's one of the first times anyone had ever actually warned you, because I do think and I don't exclude myself from this, the public defenders like to shock sometimes with what they've seen and what they know. And like we joke about sex crimes all the time. That's not funny to other people, but it can be to us. And so no one had ever said, like, look away, this could really disturb you. And you're just here in training. You could glance at the ground instead of staring at this woman lying. I remember I looked and now I remember it. It's like stuck in my brain. 

Alison Debelder [00:36:06] Yeah, I think that's interesting, too, that you mentioned this young man who was killed, that it's just him lying there lifeless, that you remember, because I know that you've seen gory photographs, right? Like, yes, I've seen. Somebody who was chopped up with an ax and limbs pointing the wrong way and blood spatter and bits of bodies places. Right. But I find it curious that some of the images that stay with me. Are just of of somebody who's still it's not necessarily the most bloody 

Katherine Hinchey [00:36:49] image you've ever seen. Yes. So true. 

Alison Debelder [00:36:54] What springs to my mind is I've listened to a lot of 911 tapes where somebody is terrified, horrible things are happening, you can hear it in their voice, and then there's just like a really bored 911 operator 

Katherine Hinchey [00:37:07] trying to get their address 

Alison Debelder [00:37:10] right. Anything else that stands out? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:37:15] The 911 calls, I don't know, I think something about the hecticness of it is not as nothing sticks in my brain that much. I mean, I but I have read or not even read, but gotten deeply involved in some child sex cases where it's really hard to think, you know, you have to train your mind to not think too much about what's happening to the child. And you just kind of sometimes you get to a point where you just have to put it aside because you just think, God, how horrible for this child to experience what they say they experience. And there are some of those cases that just. You know, I just feel like really sad for the child when I think about it, like if that was happening to me or God forbid, my child, just like how awful you would feel. And so it's you have to work hard at kind of gaining that separation ability to kind of view it very clinically as opposed to emotionally. 

Alison Debelder [00:38:17] Right. Same for clients backgrounds of abuse and so forth. Right. Have you ever considered talk therapy? Because I'm thinking when you say you have to just like view it clinically and compartmentalize. That really resonates with me, but also is that good, is that healthy? I mean, maybe it is, but. I don't know, have you have you ever thought of doing something more formally? No, you know, it's this has come 

Katherine Hinchey [00:38:50] up a lot lately, actually. It's interesting. I think maybe it's just the we're now in the 21st century and people are talking about it. And I don't know. But. I don't I don't know if someone who hasn't done sex crimes, even a therapist, can really understand the issues you're dealing with, and I find it most helpful to talk to my colleagues in special defense who are doing the same thing. And it's not necessarily just one person who's had one sex case. It's this whole like all day long I sit and talk and read about little kids having sex with adults against their will. So unless someone else has been through that Alison you have, it's hard for them to even understand because I don't hate my clients and a lot of my sex clients are the nicest clients I've ever had and the easiest to work with. And so it's I don't want to be in any kind of position where I spend all my time defending what I do and why I care about that client. And I but I do find it helpful to sit down with a colleague and preface the conversation with like, this is really bothering me, not like I want to laugh about it or tell you what happened in court. Like I can't get this out of my head that this happened to this child or the way this is reading and that I'm usually I mean, to every time I've done that, your colleague responds in kind and wants to listen and try to help you. And I also just find like I just find that I've found techniques that work best for me. Like if I'm feeling that way, I have to put the case aside, like, move on, take like a five minute break to look at my phone or text a friend about something about a movie or something like that, and just kind of like take yourself out of go to lunch or whatever. And so I just kind of have dealt with it that way. I've never really considered therapy because I just don't know what a therapist. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just feel like there's so there's so much judgment from people who don't do this work on what you're doing. That it's hard for I think it's hard for anyone to understand. So, Katherine, I know that you're a runner. Is that something that helps you? Is that something that you started to do when you were a party or because it's also a communal thing that you do with colleagues? So could you talk a little bit about the benefits of that or or or if it's completely separate as a way to get away from this work? Oh, no, totally intertwined. I mean, I have always, not always, but I've always liked to run and I'm by no means a fast speed runner. I just enjoy it for my own personal benefit. So but I ran in high school. I always ran with my friends in college and law school. So I've always found it the best way to process any emotion or issue. I mean, you know, even with a friend, if you've had a. Argument or disagreement, like being able to go out by yourself and be outside. I really rarely run with music. I really like to just let myself think. And like, you know, sometimes I think about my cases or my clients or if I'm mad at a judge, like what I really want to say to the judge, you can't or sometimes I can zone out and just not think of anything. So it's it's hugely important. And I was actually talking to Thomas, my son, about this because, you know, he's seven and he gets really angry sometimes when things don't go his way. Like if I tell him he can't play video games or we're not going to you know, we're not going to the park because it's the pandemic like stuff like that. And he gets angry. And I'm like, you've got to find an outlet for the anger and is running. If I if I'm having a bad day and I just want to you know, I don't want to do anything. I want to crawl in bed. I have to remind myself to go for a run, even if it's like ten minutes, because I know I'll feel better and it always helps. 

Alison Debelder [00:42:58] Do you think that that helped you not get involved in some of the unhealthy ways that people deal with this work, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:43:07] like drinking too much and taking whatever drugs make you feel better? Yeah, I, I've always been like I mean, I guess just growing up I've always exercised and it's always been part of it. I mean I still do drink probably more than I should, which is a hallmark of a lot of lawyers. But yes, I think just the general like fact that running almost every day is have been part of my life for probably, I don't know, like maybe close to like 30 years now is definitely a lifestyle choice that I use to help me in all manner of things. So, yes. 

Alison Debelder [00:43:53] I wonder I'm just going to go back to something you mentioned, you mentioned that your whole caseload is mostly sex crimes. I understand why it makes sense to have people with an entire caseload of sex crimes because it involves specific skills that it takes a while to get good at and to hone. And you would want people with that expertize litigating those cases to get the best results for clients. But it also occurs to me that it might make sense to divide those cases up so that you didn't have just those cases all day, every day, and to maybe have a mix of things. What do you think about having an entire caseload of sex crimes versus mixing it up so that you don't just have this awful. Tsunami of sadness coming at you every day. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:44:50] Well, I think it's interesting because I think the reason there's a specialized division. At the PD's office is because sex crimes take so long to resolve, and I mean, I have I started at the PD office again in March of twenty eighteen and I still have some twenty eighteen cases and they're just. They just it takes forever, it takes forever to get them ready for a trial. Most of the time you really don't try them. I mean, most of the sex cases do resolve because of concerns by either side of justice. I mean, it's mandatory life half the time. And then, you know, the state's considerations of do they want a child testifying in open court is a big deal. So I think that's the primary reason, is that if you have a amount of sex cases in your regular docket as a regular felony line attorney or even a felony division chief, those cases are going to be with you. And you just don't have the time that you're going to need to put. You know, I talk to my clients way more than I did when I had a regular felony caseload. And I have to prepare with them so much more for each deposition. And there's a lot more like just emotional time with them, like talking them through what they're charged with and what it means. So I think that it would be really hard to. Maybe if there was another division, like a major crimes division, you could share the cases, maybe, but that's just not, you know, the budgets and the people, it's hard to do that. 

Alison Debelder [00:46:42] I'm thinking about all of the different areas that we talked about, taking sort of a prospective look. Is there anything that you can think of specifically if you had a magic wand that you could wave and change training in law school or training in public defenders offices? Is there anything that you can think of that you would like to see happen to make the work easier or make it healthier? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:47:11] Yeah, I mean, I think law school should add a component of mental health and teaching people how to deal with the reason your client is there, because it's it's really rarely good. I mean, I can only think of what adoption is. Great. You're helping someone get a child. But even my husband, who does construction law and represents insurance companies mostly, he still has a client who's being sued for like millions of dollars. And the client, we'll call him and be like, am I going to lose my business? Am I is this know he represents like pain or sometimes they don't have all this money in the bank. They have insurance, but will they not get insured if this lawsuit proceeds? So I think in any aspect, the reason you're doing your job, I think should be addressed better in law school. It's not billable hours. It's not how much money you can make and what big firm you can get a summer internship in. It's even the most economic of legal practices involves a person who's in trouble. Right. So I do I wish they addressed that at the beginning of what your job as a lawyer really is. I mean, you're called a counselor for a reason. And so I think that would be important. And I really think I wish the college the first thing that a lot of young public defenders go to discussed a number of things. One of which is that it's OK to feel sorry for the victim or the family or that kind of thing. You're not a bad attorney because you sympathize with the other side and that it's also important to have sympathy and understanding for your own client that you can say in your head, I think my client did this and I think it's really bad. But learning how to also be the one standing next to your client like everybody needs someone to stand next to them at the worst part of their life. And a client in jail charged with a crime is going to be at one of the worst points in their life. So how do you deal with that? How do you sometimes my clients, I'm the only one talking to them and there's nobody there's their family has abandoned them or their families victim and their their girlfriend or has long gone after she finds out that he's not getting out of jail in two months for being wrongfully accused. And so that's there's so much to think about than just calling them quickly and clinically telling them when their depositions are set. And that's become so clear to me during the pandemic when they're just in jail, they they have no idea what's going on. I mean, I've had clients ask me, like, what are the what are the virus numbers? What are is it going up or there people still quarantining, like all these things that they just don't know. And it's been really positive for some of my relationships with my clients. We're all just like take the time to, like, look up a news article for them or talk them through what Dr. Fauci says. And, you know, stay away from politics because I don't want to get involved in that. But I try to let them know kind of where we are without talking about their crime. So I do wish there was more discussion of that among the early days. And even now, when you go, you know, we have weekly meetings like it's always talking about your cases. There isn't a lot of like how's everyone doing? How do you feel now? Do you have a bad week or that kind of thing? I mean, think about you acquired cases in twenty eighteen that you still have and how much has happened in the world in four years, and then I can see very vividly in my head, you know, a wife and kids and a separation and a divorce and deaths in the family and times moving on and everyone's peeling away. And you're kind of the person that's left standing with that person in this awful space. Right, exactly. Yeah. That's really powerful, very powerful. 

Alison Debelder [00:51:23] Do you guys debrief after cases like just the idea of looking at a case after it's all done and saying. I mean, like, I feel like there's technical parts, right, like was this a good result? Could it have been a better result? But also, how does everybody feel at the end of it? It would be interesting to have all the parties right. Like does anybody feel made whole by the disposition and. Could the lawyers have felt better? At the end of it, right, like how the whole process affected everybody. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:52:01] Yeah, I'd love to know that I'd love to know on some of my my recent sex dispositions in particular, like I mean, I know how my clients feel, but how does the family feel? And I don't know. I think it would be fascinating to hear that. And is this something that they would have done a year ago if we had only asked that if the state had told me that this is what they could have? I wonder that a lot. 

Alison Debelder [00:52:28] Well, and from a restorative justice perspective, 10 years down the line, because I know I have talked to people who were victimized by a family member and they ended up being the person that the perpetrator relied on to help them reenter when they left prison. Right. They didn't have any money. They didn't have any resources. And so the family member that they had victimized ended up having to start trying to find places that sex offenders can live and work and et cetera. And then, of course, the whole family dynamic where that person is the reason that the perpetrator had to go to prison. And all these other family members, you know, they all love this person and watch them go to prison, and that sets up some really uncomfortable dynamics within the family going forward. I feel like there's a lot of room for restorative justice conversations, especially in these cases where it's just not black and white. It's not like a stranger going up to a stranger and bunking them on the head with a stick and taking their purse. Right. Like these are complicated relationships that are going to continue. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:53:53] Yeah, I think that's so interesting. I totally agree. And I, I am thinking now of times I've spoken to younger state attorneys about this exact thing because they'll come out swinging and say, well, this is terrible. He deserves life in prison. And, you know, I say sometimes I just say to them, like, well, you need to think about it from the victim's perspective, too. Like, do they want their dad to go to prison for the rest of his life? Because they said they told what had happened to them. I mean, that's like that's a huge emotional burden for a child. Right, to have. And it's not. You know, it doesn't mean that they don't still love their father. What happened to them is wrong, but you do need to take more consideration of that intricacy of the relationship because it's exactly like you said, someone shot in the head by someone they don't know in the family, you know, is horrified. That's very different than it happening within the family, which is eighty five percent of the time. It's like a family issue with a sex crime on some level, like cousin or uncle or whatever. 

Alison Debelder [00:55:06] I don't want this isn't a deposition, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:55:12] cyclists, the catch all question, 

Alison Debelder [00:55:14] is there anything else that you have thought about that we didn't cover today? But seriously, you know, we asked you if you would agree to do this and you were kind enough to say yes. Is there anything that you've been mulling over you've thought about that hasn't come up since we've been talking? 

Katherine Hinchey [00:55:32] There's only one thing because I was thinking earlier this week, just getting ready for this, like the way I see trauma in our jobs. And I think there is also the trauma of the basic unfairness of the criminal justice system that is really hard, especially as you get older in this profession, because there's so many times and a lot of I thought a lot about this with the Black Lives Matter movement this late spring and summer. And just I just I just feel like a cog in the machine of what am I doing to help. There's so many things wrong with the way we arrest people, the bonds we give them, the way they move through the criminal justice system, the prosecutors power. And I'm so used to it on so many levels that I sometimes feel really guilty or ineffective that I can't do more. And a lot of times if you say this, people will be like, oh, well, you could file a motion or the appellate court will look at it. And that's not what I mean at all. It means I mean, here's my client that I don't think should be getting what they're getting. And I don't think it's fair that they have a bond of five hundred thousand dollars or and that the judge laughed me in the courtroom when I file a bond motion and it but what can I do? It's like and then you just kind of think, am I making any difference at all? And I think that is something that everybody has to face when they're doing indigent work in any form. Because, you know, you look to the private attorney, to your left who's representing someone with a lot of money and they're out and they're getting six passed days before the case is filed because they're talking to the state, giving the mitigation and they're not getting the same type of sentence. And it can be really disillusioning. To keep saying that over and over again. 

Alison Debelder [00:57:35] As a way to just kind of cap things off. Before we sign off, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:57:42] we're going to transition into a segment, we're going to pull you out of where you were. Oh, I love it. 

Alison Debelder [00:57:50] Yeah, I think it's really generous of you to be willing to talk about your work, which is tough. And I think it can be tough to talk about when you're done doing the actual work. So I asked some folks to reflect upon your work. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:58:06] Oh, no. Suzy says I was having a tough time today with one of my cases. It's so hard to know and understand all the awful things that happened to a person before they get to us and then to feel like we can't do anything to help them. Katherine definitely understands this burden we carry and was able to encourage me to keep going, even though sometimes it feels like nothing we do matters. Oh, that's so nice. I'm going to cry. 

Alison Debelder [00:58:41] And the last one I have is from Brittany Love. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:58:45] Oh, yes. 

Alison Debelder [00:58:47] You would think that to defend a child rapist, one would have to be rather heartless. It's actually quite the opposite. To be able to look past the crime and see the humanity in the person behind the act requires enormous amounts of compassion and empathy. And that really does describe who Katherine is, both as an attorney and as a person. I asked her once how she could defend people accused of doing such evil things. She said that no matter how awful the crime is, everyone deserves a person fighting for them. She explained that if they lose the fight, she stands next to her clients at sentencing so that they don't have to face the worst day of their lives alone. I thought that was a beautiful thing for somebody to say, 

Katherine Hinchey [00:59:39] that's amazing, 

Alison Debelder [00:59:41] and I'm really glad that you're there to stand next to people. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:59:45] Oh, thank you. Definitely makes me tear up. So sweet to hear these things. 

Alison Debelder [00:59:53] All right, well, thank you so much for doing this. I really do appreciate it. 

Katherine Hinchey [00:59:56] Thank you guys for asking me. It was a really positive experience. I was going to say fun, but I didn't know if that was quite the right word. But I always enjoyed talking to the two of you very much. Oh, thank you so much. 

Alison Debelder [01:00:11] Trauma injustice is created by Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. Please be sure to like review and read us. It means a lot.