Regina Wright

Chris and Alison interview solo practitioner Regina Wright (reginawrightlaw.com). Regina has been a criminal defense attorney for 30 years and has worked both as an assistant public defender and as a private attorney.  We talk about these two types of practice, the importance of taking cases to trial, and about racial disparities in the criminal justice system. 

These conversations are not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse, and incarceration.

Transcript

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Chris Moser [00:00:03] This is trauma and justice, this is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma and the justice system. We also talk about the ways that law school and training have aided or failed the people we interview and ought to be in these conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic history should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:35] I'm Alison DeBelder 

Chris Moser [00:00:37] and I'm Chris Moser. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:38] Welcome. Our guest today is Regina. Right? If you're interested in getting in touch with Regina, maybe hiring her, you can find her at her website, which is Regina. Right. Dot dotcom. That spelled R E G I and a wri g h t L.A. w dotcom. And her phone number is nine zero four five five one zero three four one. Welcome, Regina. Thanks for talking to us. 

Regina Wright [00:01:07] Well, thanks for having me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:01:09] If my memory serves me. You grew up in South Florida, right? 

Regina Wright [00:01:13] Yes, I grew up in Miami. I have nine siblings. Nine. I am the first one of my siblings to go to college, although others have gone since I've been there. I'm the only lawyer in my family. In fact, I'm the only lawyer in my know. That's not true. My niece is a lawyer now a public defender in Orlando. Let me say this. The fact that I'm a lawyer is probably a result of a serious series of accidents. I think I'm lucky to be a lawyer because I didn't know any lawyers when I grew up. None, not a single one. I don't even think I knew like any college graduates. But when I was a little kid, everybody was like, you're smart, you're smart. So you have to be a doctor or a lawyer. And I knew I couldn't be a doctor because I can't stand that. So I determined that I'd be a lawyer probably about a year. And I don't know how I became a lawyer because I didn't know how to become a lawyer. I just kind of found myself in the right places, around the right people. And it happened. I mean, mainly by luck. I think I'm pretty lucky that I'm a lawyer. 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:24] But now you got your undergrad degree at USC in Criminal Justice and Afro-American Studies, right? 

Regina Wright [00:02:34] I did. But you know what I did in. I didn't go to law school to do criminal law, I absolutely did not. I knew that I can major in anything. So I just chose that. And I obviously I like the Afro-American studies, so that's why I kind of minded in that. But I've just had ideas of, you know, you don't know, lawyers and you have ideas of who they are and what they're supposed to be. I'm just like you and me and my expensive suit with my nice briefcase working as a corporate lawyer. That's right. That is what that is honestly what I believe I would be doing. 

Alison DeBelder [00:03:12] I'm wondering if that was Chris's experience, too, because she was a first generation college student. And just from teaching at FSU and learning from my first generation students, I didn't realize all the stuff that people weren't telling them that other people just took for granted. That was just kind of in the ether around them, you know, like they knew what office hours were for. I don't know, because somebody probably mentioned office hours before or they knew how to get funding or how to move into a dorm or. I don't know. But so was that your experience, too, Chris? 

Chris Moser [00:03:48] Yes. I'm curious if, Regina, did you have a traditional timeline path or did you have any gaps between high school and college and law school? 

Regina Wright [00:04:00] No, I had no gaps. I was single mindedly focused on achieving my goal. I went to summer school, I got out in college in time, and I went straight to law school. I had absolutely no gaps and I really didn't even think I could afford that. Like, you know, you have a single minded goal and you're going to achieve your goal. And so you don't veer off or have a gap year or anything like that. What about you? 

Chris Moser [00:04:29] Well, it was really different because I, I lucked into high paying unskilled jobs in South Florida because I was a bartender in Fort Lauderdale and I made so much money that it was hard for me to justify not doing that. And so my path was a lot of starts and stops and extended periods of community college. But I I'm sure it's the same sentiment going to college, like Alison said, and really just not having anyone to talk to and navigate all of those things. That's the best part of my job that I have now. And academia is helping mentor people, showing them amortization charts, helping them negotiate offers. It's so valuable. And I look back and feel the same way, like how in the world did I get here with no structure, no support, so good teachers. I had a couple of good teachers who could see talent or value, and that was very encouraging. But it's extraordinary. I didn't know that we had that in common. 

Regina Wright [00:05:45] Right. 

Alison DeBelder [00:05:46] So I know that currently you run your own law firm, you're a solo practitioner, and I know that you have taken time and practiced civil law in the past. But you started your career at the Jacksonville Public Defender's Office. How did you wind up there since you grew up in Miami? You went to school in Gainesville. How did you end up in Jacksonville where you still live? Right. And practiced law and your mom and a wife and all of that stuff. 

Regina Wright [00:06:14] I actually started my career at Lake City as the public defender's office. And then after a couple of years, I moved to Jacksonville. The reason I became a public defender is again, by happenstance. I took criminal clinic probably my last year of law school, and I just really liked it and just kind of stuck, I guess. But I mean, that's really how I got into it. Then I still had those ideas. I'm going to be with the civil law firm with my expensive suit and my fancy briefcase. So I just I took that class and I really liked it. I mean, there's something about in in Gainesville. You really you had a caseload. You had supervision, obviously, but you were actually operating as a lawyer through the University of Florida's criminal clinic. So you had a lot of autonomy on how you can handle cases. And I really liked it. And so that's how I became a public defender. 

Chris Moser [00:07:13] I went to. You have to. Yeah, I. I had the same experience. 

Regina Wright [00:07:17] Barnum being a public defender is the best job I've ever had. I wish I could be a public defender again. 

Alison DeBelder [00:07:25] Why are you sitting in that chair not being a public defender then? 

Chris Moser [00:07:28] I think you absolutely could be a public defender again. What are you talking about? 

Regina Wright [00:07:31] Well, I always tell you what I like about being a public defender. When you're a public defender, you are devoted. One hundred percent to the practice of law. You are a lawyer 24/7, you don't have to worry about getting clients paying bills or anything. And so you have a lot of freedom as a public defender that you don't have as a private attorney. I mean, obviously, the money is better now, not always. But the reason I'm not a public defender is really when Meshach became the public defender, I just couldn't stay there anymore. It just was not the same. The the mission wasn't the same, the goals weren't the same, people weren't the same. I mean, he really just destroyed the office and after a year there while he was there, I just left. 

Chris Moser [00:08:23] Can I ask you a question about private practice and trauma and you touched on it with the bills and the logistics of running a business, and I struggle with this as someone who occasionally takes criminal cases, the fees. Do you have someone else who helps negotiate that? Because some of our clients are treated so unjustly and so unfairly and no one really has money laying around to hire a competent attorney. And I find myself really struggling with how to set fees and value my own work, but also do it in a way that gives access to people who, you know, aren't in the threshold where they can't afford an attorney, but they can't afford, you know, just they just don't have a bunch of money laying around. How do you do that? Because it's something that I struggle with. 

Regina Wright [00:09:14] I struggle with it to actually. And I think that honestly, my fees are probably lower than they should be, probably a lot lower this based on what I hear other attorneys charge. So I struggle with it only because I think that what you charge is a measure of how good you are. But I don't I still don't charge a lot and I don't really hound people about money because I still kind of have a public defender. Mindset is hard to get out of that mindset. Like you've been working free, not free, obviously got a salary, but you're you don't depend on your clients to make money. So it is still a struggle with me. I don't like really a lot of people don't come to me and negotiate personally the fee. But what I do is they have to pay me half up front and the rest is done and payments. And I struggle with collecting the payments because I'm not a I need my money, I need my money, I need my money. And so a lot of times I go without being paid. And I sometimes I work a lot without going, without being paid. But I live a comfortable life. So to that extent I'm not like, oh, I just need to buy myself a boulder, live in a really large house or have a yard. So to some extent, as long as I am comfortable and I have my all of my bills are paid and I have money in the bank and my kids are good and my family is good, I'm not going to just raise my fees just because I care. Because I think I think you're right. It's important that people who find themselves in the system have good representation. And sometimes, you know, a lot of times I'll ask the person who is your public defender. And if I know the person and I know they're good and I'm like, look, you're OK, you have a good lawyer, you don't need to hire anybody. And I turn away a lot of people saying there's nothing I can do that the public defender isn't doing for you because, you know, if some point is like you have to live with yourself. And so if you're just getting money for I don't know, I usually if somebody comes to me and they have a lawyer or a public defender and I ask, what's the issue? What is the problem? And sometimes they hire you just because they feel comfortable having a private attorney as opposed to a public defender. And that's something you can't really put a price on. So it's like if you feel like you can't trust your lawyer, no matter how good they are, then you're not going to be comfortable with what happens on the back end unless they just drop the charge or something. So I, I turn away people and some people call me, they have private lawyers and like, you have a good lawyer, you just got to be patient or something like that. Because although my fees are probably low in the lawyer world, there are a lot of money to most people. You know, most people don't have thousands of dollars laying around for whatever purpose. Oh, yeah. So it's like that money that you have put aside for your lawyer. If I can help you, then I will say, look, I can help you. But if you're just mad or something like that, I just said you're fine. Just stick with your lawyer. Sometimes they hire me even though I've done that, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they just go back to their lawyer and talk to them. 

Chris Moser [00:12:36] Yeah. And on the flip side, because I've done pro bono work, that mentality also permeate. So I do I'll do low bono work, you know what I mean? And take a little bit instead of nothing, because it really psychologically, if you're not appointed an attorney, it seems like they don't seem to appreciate it as much when you do it for free. And this is all like even public service or sitting on boards, you know, it's like it really seems to resonate with me. And I changed my kind of perspective on that because that's different from just taking cases and taking money. It's like, no, this is wrong. I feel compelled. To help but pain, something just seems to improve the relationship, right? 

Alison DeBelder [00:13:29] Well, I wanted to talk to you about kind of a broader question relating to working in a system that is so replete with racism and whose foundation is racism. And in more than one way, like I think about the academic evidence we have for that, like the examination of the state attorney's office in Jacksonville, where they found the impact of race on filing decisions and people getting approved for diversion programs or the statewide studies. I know Brennan has promoted in the wake of the conversations around disenfranchisement showing just how policing practices target minority communities and sentencing disparities. But then also, even without those, if you're practicing criminal law, presumably in the United States, but certainly in Jacksonville, Florida, there's plenty of day to day anecdotal evidence like having judges be exposed for having made racist remarks and having to step down, or that there was a photograph in the Jacksonville magazine a while back of the greatest lawyers in Jacksonville. And every single person featured in that photograph was white and demand. And included judges and people who hold themselves out to be civil rights lawyers and yet never noticed that everybody was a white man in the photograph, or even I was talking to Chris earlier about a trial. I was really happy to have you working with me on. We tried a case and there was a 911 one recording from a person who was robbed at gunpoint. And on the 911 one recording, he used a racial slur. Now, when we showed up for trial, the racial slur was no longer in the tape. Right. And I mean, the list goes on and on. And I guess my question is how you perceive that that widespread injury that is ongoing to the community impacts you as an African-American person and as an African-American woman. 

Regina Wright [00:15:52] When that's a loaded question, I will say this. When I'm in the courthouse, it doesn't occur to me that I'm an African-American person. I don't know why. And only recently have I even thought about it because I just think about the bailiffs in there, like like one bailiff was like, you walk in here like you own the place. And I thought that was an odd comment. And I was thinking to myself in the and I only thought of that recently. And I was like, you know, when I'm in the courthouse, I don't think of myself as an African. And I just I'm just the lawyer here working now. And of course, for much of the time, I was a public defender, so I was assigned to a certain place and I go to a certain place and everybody there would know me. But as a private attorney, I go to different courtrooms and I would say probably seventy five percent of the time when I go to a different courtroom that I've never been in before, they mistake me for a defendant, even though I'm just I never go to court without a jacket or a suit or I am cause or a briefcase for that matter. I am constantly mistaken for a defendant and I just and I'm like, OK, I'm a lawyer. And so I don't and I don't. And it's not let me say this. A lot of the people who do this are even black people because, you know, bailiffs who sit at the back of the door, a lot of them are black. So only recently have I thought about it. But I'm like, 

Alison DeBelder [00:17:27] but wait, stop. Hang on. Let me stop you there. Yeah. What does it feel like when that happens and how how do you respond? I mean, I can guess how you respond 

Chris Moser [00:17:37] and then how do you respond when your clients with you, you know, separate them to walk in before your client comes, but to walk in with your client no matter their race? I think those are two different things. 

Regina Wright [00:17:51] Right. I rarely I guess because of the way the criminal system is set up in Jacksonville, I really walk in with my clients and there has never been an issue, to be honest. I don't really I mean, I guess it gives me pause, but it's not like it's not a major issue, I guess. And maybe because I'm used to it. So I'm not like, well, why do you think that now? I've gone to the jail before and been upset that the, you know, like in a suit, like they thought I was just some random baby mama visiting some guy or something. I've been inside the jail on the weekend and they've questioned me. I'm like, well, I have this special access pass that lawyers have. How do you think I got it? Oh, now that has given me pause. And I don't know why. Maybe because I don't expect that at the jail, like I see white guys in there with shorts and T-shirts and nobody ever it never occurred to them that they're not lawyers. But I think that as a black person, you just used to it. I mean, I don't know how else to describe that kind of thing. You just used to it. Now, as far as the. Racism within the system and I have talked to prosecutors about this and they're like, well, we're not racist. I say, no, you're not. I mean, I guess you're not. I don't know. But my thought process is when I look in when you go to jail one, you see more of a mixed crowd. In game one, which is first appearance, by the time we get to court, almost every person out in the audience is a black person. So. It so the state attorney's office and I mean, of course, I don't know how they're making their filing decision and they're the ones who were discriminatorily making their decisions because it makes no sense to me that there's a mixed crowd in first appearance. But in day one, I mean, in regular court, everybody there is black. And if you go to like Clay County or Baker County or Nassau, then you have a mixture of people. So why is it that in Duvall all the defendants are black and so there is some discrimination? 

Chris Moser [00:20:10] I was hoping that with the new regime change, there would have been some marketable improvement in what you're seeing day in and day out. I mean, I'm teaching discrimination law for my undergrads and I'm using Professor Kennedy stamp from the beginning book because so many people just don't know history. 

Regina Wright [00:20:31] Right. 

Chris Moser [00:20:32] And that's part of the problem. But today, he said the heartbeat of racism is denial and we can hear the heartbeat clearly. So when you tell a prosecutor with all your experience. What you see and observe, and they just and it's not personal, it's systemic, right? It's so frustrating. And I'm in a falling down kind of moment where I'm like, want to flip over tables and like, what are you talking about? But it is it's like talking to other people. And I just talked to someone last night after a hearing in a similar profession. Right. Doctor, lawyer profession complaining about other people's offensive comments or insensitivity. And the reaction was similar. It was like that happens to me all the time. All right. 

Alison DeBelder [00:21:25] Well, and I think I know you can't step outside of yourself, right? You only have your experience, like I can only see things from my perspective as a as a woman. I don't know how that's different than walking down the street. As a man. I can pick out a couple of ways, know there are instances where I can see men being treated differently. And I know that we have this Bakhtin racism throughout our country. But like if you look at the health care system, similarly, you can see really disparate health outcomes that are based on race, especially when you look at black women compared to white women compared to white men. Right. You can see that. But I feel like in a criminal courtroom, for the reasons that you've just explained and others, it's really very undeniable and it's very much in your face. So I find it hard to imagine that that doesn't add a layer of stress that other people aren't experiencing. If that makes sense, if we're in the same way that being a woman. There are other experiences that happen to them, like we talk to people who have had repeated experiences of male clients masturbating in front of them or gunning at the jail, and they've reflected on how that's part of their job. It's something that they experience that men, lawyers never have to experience. We never hear it reported from men. 

Regina Wright [00:22:53] Right. I think that to some extent is kind of the quote from James Ball when being a black person and being just marginally aware of racial disparities, you're just angry all the time because is everywhere. And then when you have people were like, well, we're not racist, we're not racist, there's no racism here. You just go out on your own. There is kind of like Rhondda People's Ward is trying to become judge. And I was reading reading some article about her and I read the comments and these like she just needs to study hard and work harder. And it's like is her fault that she. 

Alison DeBelder [00:23:32] Let me interrupt for a second, because I think that's a really good point. And just for people who are listening, who aren't familiar with Rhonda's path, Chris, do you want to talk about because I think you have recently shared with me how many times she put her name in before she became a judge. 

Chris Moser [00:23:50] Yeah. So, Regina, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was 13 times she made it to committee. I think she was involved in the process more than that. But when you make it and you're vetted through committee, you're essentially qualified and over and over and over again, she wasn't picked. And there's lots of other, for lack of a better word, dysfunctional political dynamics going on in Jacksonville and all other kinds of places where she finally decided to run against someone and succeeded overwhelmingly in many areas. But that is just an extraordinary amount of perseverance. And I don't know any other person who has applied that many times and gone through that process so many times and never got picked. 

Alison DeBelder [00:24:46] And is she. Am I correct that I know that she's not the first African-American woman to serve as a judge, but is she the first African-American woman to win by election? 

Regina Wright [00:24:58] Yes. 

Alison DeBelder [00:24:59] Yes. OK, sorry for interrupting you, but I wanted to clarify the reference. 

Regina Wright [00:25:03] Right. So it's like is is really hard to I guess to some extent when you're my age and you're an African-American, you're used to it. So I don't know. I mean, I guess as a matter of to some extent there's some acceptance like this is the way it is. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, when you grew up, you know, you had to work twice as hard. You had to do the just twice as good just to really even come in under a white person. So I think that's kind of ingrained in us. And I think the newer generation is very different from them because they grew up with, I guess, this false idea that they are equal or at least they're treated equally. And so they are I think the younger generation is less likely to take the things that we just take and just say, well, you know, that's just part of being a black person, you know? And I think that's how kind of the people of my generation have really rationalized it. Like, you just have to work harder. You just got to do more. You just got to get in there at eight o'clock. And when I first became a public defender, I literally would get in the office at eight o'clock and leave at eleven. And I just would work like crazy hours because it was like I just. Had to be good and I had to, like, impress everybody around me. I think that now that we kind of seeing this reckoning, this and I think it's because younger people are just there over where they've never really experienced officer at the jail. Once I'm in this girl and she was African-American, she was pretty young and she had to go to the bathroom. And she's, like, telling the correction officer, you know, let me go to the bathroom. And I'm just like looking at her like, well, you're not going to get anything that way. And she got a little girls in the bathroom. And so I was like, wow. And so it's just a different mindset. It's kind of like we're not going to take it anymore. And I and I also think that to some extent, other people have noticed are beginning to notice that I guess that white privilege exists when people never white people like I think a lot of people are like, I don't understand, because if you work hard, you're just going to be successful. And then but they don't get all the barriers that you have to even go through even to get into the same job there. So and I think a lot of people are recognizing that. And so I think that I mean, it seems like every generation we have a different kind of reckoning with regard to race, and we never really deal with it totally, completely. And I think we're going to continue to experience issues that way. But going back to the criminal justice system, I think that everybody in this system knows that black people are treated differently than white people. And I have I know this because when I have a white client. It is important to me that the prosecutors see my client. Because I know when they see that my client is a white person, they are going to give that person the benefit of the doubt. I can tell you I have one relatively young white kid with like many, many car burglaries. He was initially placed on probation for a whole bunch of car burglaries. And he came back to me on the violation of probation. And I didn't talk to the prosecutor beforehand because he was a really attractive young kid. I just waited for her to see him in court before I got an offer and I got to county jail time off because I knew I knew that that like, if I had just talked to her, she would have had a different mindset than when she saw that cute little innocent looking white kid in front of her and she would not send him to prison. Now, I had a 16 year old who had the same things, same a bunch of car burglaries, and they would not send that kid to county jail. They sent him to prison, to prison. And so you you see that and you know that the only difference between those two peoples was their race. And everybody knows that I mean, you hear a lawyer saying, well, if you go to trial, you're going to have those six white people in that jury or I mean, you hear lawyers saying that or I can't remember even arguing to a prosecutor, you know, the jury's going to see my cute little white guy and they're not going to convict them. They're not. And so, you know, is there and to some extent, obviously, as a defense attorney, when you have a white guy, you know, they're going to give them the benefit of the doubt. You use it. But when you have an especially heartbreaking you see so many young black males going to prison for long periods of time. And I'm not saying that they didn't do what they're accused of, although that's a whole different story. People who take pleas or convicted of things they did not do. And race is a huge factor in those. But you see so many people who, like nobody, even wants to consider that they have the potential to contribute to our society. I mean, they just don't even want to consider it. They don't understand that you send a kid to prison. That kid is going to come out totally different. I mean, I think they understand it. They don't care. And so that's the hardest part when you see these young guys who have potential, who are not monsters, who could be redeemed and we just throw them away into the prison system, and then we wonder why we have a horrible crime problem when I bet the crime explosion that we are experiencing now is a direct result of Angela Corey and her 10 year minimum mandatories, I guarantee you that that is because if you went to prison at 16, 17, 18 and you received 10 years, you're out right now. And what do you know? What skills do you have? What can you do? And I am convinced that this problem that we're having is a direct result of that prosecutorial policy and it has not changed with Melissa, Melissa has good ideas. She she opened up the, I guess, the kind of Innocence Project within our office and they do some good things. But the vast majority of the prosecutors in her office do not subscribe to the the ideals that she puts out in the public. And that is the problem. There's a disconnect between her and her directors are all Angela Corey holdovers with the same mentality and the same ideas that Angela Corey and put it in there for eight years. Angela Corey ran that prosecutor's office and all those people there, especially the seniors there, they're still operating under that Angela Corey mentality. And so they have good ideas, but they're not implementing them. They're sending just as many juveniles to adult court to prison. They're not using WYO in all. The defense attorneys are complaining that nothing has changed. The only thing that makes a difference with this prosecutor's office is the strength of their case, how good or bad their case is, no other mitigation matters. And so it's really disheartening. 

Alison DeBelder [00:33:06] Well, and I think that we've seen this around the country, too, even in places where much more liberal prosecutors have been elected. Right. I don't I don't think Melissa's ever held herself out to be particularly liberal. No, she came up in that same prosecutor's office with Angela Corey. She's a tough prosecutor. But even in places where you see people who are maybe former defense attorneys who've become prosecutors, what you're describing that this is a huge shift to try to turn around. Right. Right. It doesn't filter down to all the prosecutors handling the cases in the office. Right. Right. And then also with the police, you still have the same stops giving rise to the cases and policing that's focusing on marginalized communities. So the cases they have from which to choose are already I don't know what the word is poisoned. 

Regina Wright [00:34:03] They already skew their already due to a certain population. 

Alison DeBelder [00:34:08] Well, and I know you recently were posting publicly, I think, about how people can protect themselves when they have encounters with the police. So I don't know. It doesn't sound like that has changed. Right. And what I'm talking about is people, mostly black men, being stopped in certain areas. And then there's a spurious reason given by the officer, like a smell of marijuana to justify a search which then reveals no marijuana, but may lead to a case. 

Chris Moser [00:34:44] I pulled over for a seatbelt violation, which used to be a secondary offense run. And then what do I smell here? Can you talk about your advice and and recent experiences with that? 

Regina Wright [00:34:58] Oh, gosh, that is so frustrating. And this is that this is what I actually posted a couple of days ago. And I because I was so incredibly angry. And this is why. I understand that judges are mostly not going to believe my clients, I understand that. So when we didn't have body cam, I understand. OK, you got a choice between the criminal and the cop. You're going to choose the cop. But we have body cam. And I have had so many cases where I filed a motion to suppress. And it is obvious from the body cam that they have violated this person's rights and the judges just deny it, deny the motion to suppress when they have camera evidence, which shows them exactly how this person's rights were violated. And they justify in the ridiculousness, in the intellectual dishonesty on how they justify these these stops in these searches is outrageous. I have had one judge say the body cam, the officers testify contrary to the body cam and they say, well, the body cam doesn't capture everything like the human does. It's amazing. I mean, it's so it's like you you expect that with video evidence that there's going to be some sort of change, that the judges are going to listen to motions to suppress and they are just denying them over spurious reasons or ridiculous reasons or intellectually dishonest reasons. And it's like, how do you engender how do you tell your client to respect the law when the judge is now? And so it is so incredibly frustrating because what it does is it leaves police power unchecked because they know when you go to a judge and say this is wrong, this is constitutionally wrong. The judge is going to turn his turn his head and allow it. And so I guarantee you that Jacksonville will be one of the next places where there's a shooting of an unarmed black man because the police power here is unchecked. There is nobody here holding the police to the fire. And then we spend so much money on the police here. Half of our budget is goes to the police and all they do is go into black neighborhoods. And my is in a black neighborhood and it's purposely there. And I live in a black neighborhood. I purposely live there, although I could move and I can move my office because it's important to me that black people see black people who are doing positive things. But you have these police. I had a client who was stopped for a window violation. There were five cops who stopped this man for a window violation and they blocked the man from the front, from the front, from the side, from the back for a window violation. And how do you tell your clients that you're going to get a fair shot when that happens to you and the judges, just like, so what? You know, we found some marijuana. So what, your rights don't really matter. So it is really frustrating, is frustrating, because I can understand, you know, you move in, of course, but how do you ignore video evidence and just continue to sanction the behavior of the cops? I mean, it's just outrageous, and that's why I posted that, because I was so incredibly angry and for a long time I've been doing this for a while and I've seen a lot of things. And I usually just kind of keep my head to the grindstone, doing what I need to do. But somebody needs to say something about these things. We cannot allow the system to remain unchecked like this. We can't somebody has to say something. And that's why I posted that, because I was so incredibly angry. I mean, I knew in the judge knew that he was that last case. He knew he was wrong. And I could tell he wouldn't even look me in the face because it was so intellectually dishonest. But it's like they don't care. 

Alison DeBelder [00:39:28] Regina, can you for the people that are listening, can you explain what it is that you put in the post? Because I don't think I did that. 

Regina Wright [00:39:35] I think I just posted that the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and the state attorney's office have declared a war on black males rights in on the north side of Jacksonville, which is a predominantly black area in Jacksonville. And they do it under the guise that there's a lot of crime here. So they just overpoliced this area and they they find minor traffic offenses. I mean, the latest one is going over. A stop are really they stopped me before going traveling. But you know how like and you don't have a stop sign, but you have the low lying and the thing you're supposed to stop before and then proceed. The police are stopping people for not stopping at the stop bar. 

Chris Moser [00:40:22] Now, my question, what I'm thinking about now, just from an advocacy point, is what will work, will shame work, will go into the media and showing a lot of instances of this brazen behavior, like what's going to give? Because I completely agree with like if if you can't go somewhere where you can get your day in court and at least be heard by someone who's supposed to be impartial, what do you expect people to do, you know, when they're being harmed by the people that are supposed to protect them? 

Regina Wright [00:40:58] Right. You know, I think to some extent the defense bar in Jacksonville, NES, the man up. Honestly, I think that's part of the problem. We just don't go to trials we're afraid to lose. 

Alison DeBelder [00:41:14] When you say we don't go to trial, I wanted to point out that that does not mean you, because I know for a fact that you do go to trial because I keep seeing about how you win trials. So I wanted to just clarify that. 

Regina Wright [00:41:26] Right. And I'm probably one of the few private defense attorneys who go to trial and obviously, to some extent, pleading your case or get your guy a good deal. Obviously, that's great, but we're not getting good deals and that's the problem. You know, it's like it just amazes me how many people just plead to the courts and not plead to the course because you're like, OK, this judge is OK. He's going to do my client. Right. Just plead to the course because you just don't want to go to trial. And then your client gets banned on a plea from a judge that you would do it. So why not give your client a trial? Why not give him some appellate opportunities or even 38 50 opportunities if that be the case? Why not? Why do you why would you plead your client knowing that the judge is going to give them 25, 30 years? It just makes no sense to me. 

Chris Moser [00:42:28] Well, especially when they qualify for youthful offender. And we didn't define that. So can you talk about that statute and what it's designed to do for the viewers? 

Regina Wright [00:42:40] Basically, the youthful offender statute is designed for first time offenders and it basically caps their punishment at six years. It could be two years on probation, four years in prison, one year on probation, five years in prison. So their punishment is capped at six years. And the whole purpose of that is that they're hoping that because you're so young that you can be rehabilitated within that time frame instead of just throwing you away to the system. But we assume is not used very often in Duvall County, is not it, just to me, I just don't see the benefit in some circumstances of pleading your client straight up to the court other than you just don't want to work. I mean, really, that's the only benefit is your personal benefit. You don't want to go to trial. You don't want to lose or whatever the case may be. And I think that the defense bar here really needs to man up. And one of the judges told me that they admire the fact that I show up. And I said, I'm not going to take your money if I'm not willing to go all the way with you. And that's the bottom line. I'm not going to take your money if I will do if I'm not going to go all the way, you know, some people are like, well, you're doing your clients a disservice because they're getting more time. But they got their day in court. And I don't necessarily think you're getting more time because guess what? The next client that I walk in there with, the state attorney's office knows that I am going to try the case unless they give me a good deal. And if they don't give me a good deal, I am going to try the case. And that's the bottom line. 

Chris Moser [00:44:28] It's an adversarial system. And guess what? Even if you lose, you still can put on a sentencing hearing. You can still do everything you're doing right when you're just editing and things usually get better or you can develop and you're forced to listen to the client's trauma or neglect or background or how they got into this bad situation and how we can try to correct and rehabilitate people. 

Regina Wright [00:44:57] And if the judges are going to listen, it's just it's respect. 

Chris Moser [00:45:00] It's power. They don't respect somebody who comes in there with hat in hand. They're just playing the game for themselves. That's my opinion. I know I can say that as a privileged professor in academia land, but I also see it play out in St. John's County and in Jacksonville. Right. And I wish there were more people that that were real attorneys like you, you know, because that's what people deserve. 

Regina Wright [00:45:33] I mean, I think we are a defense bar, always complaining about prosecutors, but we shouldn't expect them to do us any favors. We are an adversarial system and if you show up and man up, then they will respect you and sometimes you will get a good deal. Or sometimes when they see that you file a notice of appearance, they don't file that charge because they know they're going to have to fight, you know. And so there is some merit in fighting for this client, but fighting for all the other clients that you may have, that the state attorney's office is going to carefully review their case before they file it. Before they go to trial, because they know that when you go to trial, you go to trial to win, you don't just go to trial to go through the motions. And I tell my clients that all the time. You don't go to trial for an appeal. You don't go to trial for 30 days if you go to trial to win. And even when the odds are stacked against you, there's not a reason in a world where you shouldn't fight your heart is because sometimes that's when you find something that gets your client found not guilty. 

Chris Moser [00:46:44] Another important point is a lot of times the evidence may not be overwhelming and the state has an obligation if they're accepting a plea, that they can prove it in trial, too. Right. 

Alison DeBelder [00:46:59] I just noticed that we're past an hour and I want to be mindful of your time. And I have like three pages of stuff that I wanted to talk to you about. And I think the conversation that we had is plenty interesting. But I wanted to check and see if there's anything that you have been reflecting on in anticipation of our conversation that you had wanted to talk about, that we haven't talked about. 

Regina Wright [00:47:22] I've talked about the things that I think that weigh on me as a defense attorney. For the most part, I talk about the system, but, you know, the Cornelius are different tools. And I will say, as I have been in May, I would have been in and I have been an attorney for 30 years. Amazing, isn't it? I started in nineteen ninety one. And the trials are different because. The clients are more spoiled now, if that even makes sense. Back in the day, you get clients who are like, OK, let's try to get me the best possible deal that I can get. But now all of my clients just want to get off and I don't know, I find that interesting, I just find that an interesting dynamic. And I don't know if it's because I'm a private attorney. And when they come to me, they expect something different or if we don't teach consequences enough, that's what I think. And I would say this, the clients now are less criminals than they were when I first became a PD. If that's hard to believe, because I see a lot of people who grew up in nice sounds like before when I first started, the people that you would have contact with were people who didn't grow up well from lower socio economic status, who kind of had to got into crime to get what they could get. But now I see so many people who have grown up in good and decent homes with no material concerns or even people who didn't grow up like their parents weren't well off, but their parents went out of their way to make sure they had stuff and so that they were never really lacking, even though their parents don't have a lot of money. And I see so many kids like that in the system now because there was this sense that I'm entitled to have these things. And so they go out and get them. I mean, so the the type of persons that you deal with are so different than from me when I first started that, if that makes any sense, 

Alison DeBelder [00:49:41] I bet, you know, I bet the sex offenders are probably the same. 

Regina Wright [00:49:48] You know, I don't I would say that I think the sex offenders are the same because I think most of the time sex offenders, a lot of them don't have any prior history. And I think that when you have a person who is accused of a sex offense, whether if they did it, it is hard to wrap their heads around the maybe the penalty or the explain to your family or whatever it is. But it is hard for them to admit that they have committed this act, whether it be something they do continuously or just one time. So, I mean, they're so they're different in that sense because it's kind of hard to wrap your head around. This is where I am. I'm a good person. I've lived a good life, and now I'm here and I can't tell my kids. I can't tell my wife, I can't tell my family that I have committed this offense. That's right. And then you also obviously have the stigma associated with that. So, I mean, that is pretty much the same. So I get I get a lot of adult sex offenses, not kids sex offenses. So though and those are very different types of cases, I would say. 

Alison DeBelder [00:51:06] Is there anything that you want to share about ways to deal with the trauma that you encounter while doing this work that work for you? Do you have any particular insight or advice that you would give to somebody starting out in this career? 

Regina Wright [00:51:21] You know, when when you first call me, you ask me, how do I deal with this? And I'm like, I don't know, because honestly, I don't drink. So I, I don't know. And I leave despite what I do, I lead a very conservative life, I should say. I go to church, I hang out with my family. So I don't really do anything unusual. I think that I have the right temperament for this job and I think that goes along what I really like. This job is hard and I can't tell you how many nights I stay awake because of this job. But ultimately, in the end, I am very satisfied with the work I do and I think that's it. I obviously I struggle with the amount of time this job takes away from me and my kids. And I think maybe every working mother probably has that same struggle as to what is the right kind of balance that you can get. And honestly, I think I failed miserably at obtaining that balance. But ultimately, I think that I really like this job. Most of the days when I come in here, I have I feel like I have a purpose, even if I something I don't like is something that I'm doing because I have a purpose. And I'm I'm an unusual attorney in the sense that I'm very introverted and very antisocial to some extent. And then I was talking to my husband and I was like, I think I said the only thing that makes me a good attorney is that I have an uncanny ability to look at issues. And find ways to deal with them. And I think that's my strength, is that I can look at a case, I can determine what the issues are, and even if I don't know the law, I know that I can look at this law to determine what's going on. And I can almost always, even if I'm in a box, find a way to defend my client and make it sound reasonable, because that's the key, right? You can you can say anything. But the question is, is it reasonable? Doesn't sound right. And I think that I can do that. I mean, I can look at even the worst situation and I can find a reasonable defense for my client there. Even if the jury doesn't buy, they at least had to think about it. I don't have any special tricks or things I do online. I just come in here and do the job that I love. And I think that's the key. I mean, I kind of looked into my purpose, really. And, you know, you always hear Oprah and all these people talking about your purpose. And I think that I have my purpose and that's why I'm not an alcoholic or I'm not stressed out because I just have found my purpose. And so I'm doing what I intended to do. And even though sometimes, obviously I have self-doubt, especially after the trial, like, am I good enough? Because I never forget that I'm standing next to a person, not a defendant, a person. And no matter how bad people may think they are, you can't sacrifice that person for anything because it's the person I mean, you think about I mean, sometimes I think about that's a minute of my life. I couldn't get back for some, you know, something I did. And I think about that all the time there. These are years when, you know, these people are getting years that they can't get back. They're in an environment that's depraved, you know, prisons, I mean. And so, you know, you can never forget you're standing next to a person, and I think that's the key, I think I found my purpose and I always keep in mind that this is a person I'm standing next to, and especially when it's a young kid. I mean, I think to myself, if this were my son, what would I do? Yeah, how would I handle this case? Because I have a 14 year old son. And so I always have to think like that because it's so easy to become selfish, like, gosh, I don't want to do this work. I want to have a good weekend. I just want to have a weekend where I don't have to do any work or I just want to do this. I want to do that. It's easy to get into that because you're like, I deserve to have this time off. I deserve this. But you can't. You always kind of fighting yourself, but you can never forget that you're standing next to a person. You get to do whatever you need to do, whatever strength you have. You have to use it for that purpose. I would say even now that I am in my 50s, I would stay up all night working on a case, even though I'm dead tired because I just can't. Go into a situation not doing my best. 

Alison DeBelder [00:56:42] Just by way of wrapping up Regina, because I knew that whatever we talked about today, we'd be talking about kind of a heavy part of the work that you do. And we are really appreciative of you taking the time to examine some of that and share it with us today. I asked a couple of people if they would share with me why you and your work is important to them. And Mary Hickson told me she is constantly raising the bar for all of us and doing it flawlessly. She is an amazing and outstanding attorney. Her cross examinations are poetic. The Times she told the officer to peruse over his written report was classic. I admit I stole it, too, I love watching her in trial, she's a phenomenal woman and I have to pause there and ask you, what is the time that you asked the officer to peruse over his written report? 

Regina Wright [00:57:40] I do not even remember. I do not remember it. I have had so many trials. I cannot remember. I know I did one trial with Mary and this was a guy who was processing for a long time. That must be it, because that's the only thing I had with her. And that guy loved Mary, loved Mary. There is a great attorney thing that 

Alison DeBelder [00:58:09] Diana Johnson wrote this to me. She epitomizes what it means to be a trial attorney. She is fierce, knowledgeable and hardworking. When you get a Regina right trial record on appeal, you grin from ear to ear because, you know, she preserved the record. Having watched her from the sidelines and through the appellate lens for years. I can hands down a firm. She has made me a better attorney. I wish she could teach every little attorney how to be a confident badass. That was Diana. I know that you wouldn't use that term, but Diana would. And she's right. 

Regina Wright [00:58:52] That was really nice of you. 

Alison DeBelder [00:58:54] Thank you, Regina. 

Chris Moser [00:58:55] Thank you so much for for doing this for us. 

Alison DeBelder [00:58:59] Trauma injustice is created by Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. Please be sure to like review and write us. It means a lot.