Waffa Hanania

In this episode, attorneys Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder interview Waffa Hanania. Waffa is an Assistant Federal Public Defender for the Middle District of Florida and has been practicing law for 30 years. Waffa touches on many aspects of a career dedicated to criminal defense work, including whether people can be made whole by the criminal justice system.  The focus in this conversation centers upon the pain involved when representing people who are facing the possibility of the imposition of a death sentence.  

Transcript

Hanania_Transcript.mp3

Chris Moser [00:00:03] This is trauma and justice, this is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma and the justice system. We also talk about the ways that law school and training have aided or failed the people we interview and ought to be improved. These conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic history should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:35] I'm Alison DeBelder. 

Chris Moser [00:00:37] And I'm Chris Moser. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:39] Our guest today is Waffa Hanania. Waffa is an assistant federal defender who lives in Jacksonville, Florida. She's been practicing law for 30 some years. She was in charge of capital cases and ran the Jacksonville Regional Conflict Counsel's Office. And before that, she worked for many years as an assistant public defender in the state public defender system. She has handled in that capacity every type of criminal case in the state system, including murderers. She was a longtime member of the homicide team within that office, which enjoys a national reputation. Welcome, Waffa. Thank you for being here. 

Waffa Hanania [00:01:23] Thank you for having me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:01:25] I know we pretty much told you this is a conversation about trauma in the justice system in all the different ways that it can present itself. What has that meant to you? What have you been reflecting on? 

Waffa Hanania [00:01:39] Well, there's a few different things I've been going through in my mind as I thought about what I was going to say during this interview, and it's kind of taken a couple of different forms. One has been all of the just continuing systemic problems that we have in our criminal justice system and its impact on on me as an attorney as well as on our clients. And I think that that's the main thing, that's kind of the encompassing thing. It really does envelop so many issues that we have in our criminal justice system and that we continue to believe that if we just make enough rules and that we just have enough procedures and how to apply all those rules, that we somehow achieve fairness and equity in our system. And from beginning to end of my career, we just don't we try sometimes, but we just don't. And so that's kind of the thing that keeps popping up into my mind. And it manifests itself in a lot of different ways. But that's kind of the overarching thing that's been in my mind over the last week or so. 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:52] When you say systemic problems that do not result in equity and justice, what are you thinking of specifically? Because that means a lot of different things to me that I can think of. You know, I can think of like systemic problems with efforts that people have made to make sentencing more fair, which have resulted in harsh mandatory sentences across the board. It can also mean racism. What's on your mind? 

Waffa Hanania [00:03:21] Well, I think all of those things, but one of the things that's always bothered me and it is the reason that I really have avoided doing any capital work. And for those who don't know capital work references representing people charged with homicides and specifically those people who are facing the ultimate penalty in our criminal justice system, which is execution, the loss of their own life. And that's the one that's the kind of the big one for me. I realized very early in my career as a homicide attorney, I remember standing in front of a jury for the first time. I was standing in a courtroom in front of 12 people and doing the very first life speech. And that is a term for the argument that a lawyer makes after your client has been convicted of the murder, the homicide, the under our rules, qualifies him for the potential of the death penalty. And so then the attorney gets up after that conviction, after that same jury has decided that your client is guilty of that charge, after that same jury has heard all of these horrific facts about the circumstances of this crime. And then you have to stand up in front of that same jury of 12 people and think of the right words to say that will convince them to spare your client's life, to not kill this man that you've been working with for months and years. And and remember, the very first time I did it, I just thought to myself, this is the weirdest thing ever. This is just a really weird thing to do for a living. And the idea that we have so many rules for how we impose the death penalty and we think that that equates to fairness. We think that equates to some type of objective determination. But basically, you were standing there asking a jury to not premeditatedly kill your client. It is a form of sanctioned killing. I'm not saying that the basis for consideration may not be valid. I understand the strong feelings that homicide cases engender in people, not just in those directly affected, but in the community at large. I certainly understand that, but it is sanctioned, cold blooded, calculated killing. And we think that when we put all these rules around it, that's not what we're doing. But it is. And that's the type of thing that comes foremost to my mind when I think about the fact that our system continues to just say, well, let's just add this role or let's approach it this way. And then we we can try to take out the emotion. We can try to take out the race factor. We can try to take out the unfair application of the sanction of this killing. And it never really works. 

Alison DeBelder [00:06:32] I think that's well put. And I also think that I more and more, as time goes by, feel very similarly to the prison industrial complex generally. Now, obviously, it's not taking somebody's life. It's not that ultimate punishment. But I don't feel a whole lot better about sending people away for decades of their life or a decade of their life. I don't feel good about humans being put into the cages that exist now in the United States. Really, for all of those same reasons we put rules around it. We have equity theater or justice theater without actual justice, without making anybody whole in the system. 

Waffa Hanania [00:07:20] One of the things that brings to mind is and first of all, let me let me backtrack a little bit and just just make it very clear to everybody that I'm speaking strictly for myself. I'm not speaking for any office. I'm not speaking for any colleagues. I'm not in a position setting authority. So this is just me in the thoughts in my brain and it means nothing else. So I just want to make that very clear. But one of the things that always bothered me when you talk about equity theater is that there is a lot of that theater aspect to what we do is for a living and all the players in the system have really difficult jobs. Certainly as a defense attorney, I've always believed, especially with those kinds of cases, that it's really difficult to do that job and to do it well and to do it without it, you know, just making you miserable every day. Prosecutors have a very difficult job with all of the things that they have to see and deal with and their contact and interaction with the victims families. One of the things that's always concerned me, however, is this promise that's held out to victims families that once the trial is held, once a conviction is had, once the death penalty has been imposed, once that person's life has been taken ostensibly in payments somehow for the life that was lost, that that will bring some kind of measure of comfort or closure to a victim's family. And for some, it may. For many others it will not. And I understand, I think, why that type of conversation is held with victims families. But I think it's often a false hope. 

Chris Moser [00:09:10] It's also the beginning of a very long journey. Yeah, and I've been sitting here reflecting on what makes it extra weird and maybe you could talk a little bit about this as you were just up there the other day talking about maybe a self-defense claim that they didn't buy or an alibi or some other defense where they, you know, because you're you'd be ineffective if you didn't do that, too, by the way. And that adds an extra layer of weirdness. And the equity theater that Alison just coined is perfect because it's like the trappings of the court and the formalities and the suits and the you talk first and then, you know, it's very premeditated. Yes. 

Waffa Hanania [00:09:58] You've just spent a week maybe more telling this jury, telling these 12 people all about the ways in which your client didn't do it or the government or the state hasn't proved that he did it beyond a reasonable doubt. All of those things that you're supposed to do and a jury has just come back and said with their verdict, with their conviction of your client, they have just said, we don't believe you. Right. Right. Or at the very least, we don't agree with you and your view of these facts. And so how now do you stand up in front of the same jury? Because in spite of the fact that we often ask for separate jury to consider sentencing, that never happens. How now do you get in front of that same jury who's already told you how much they disagree with you and ask them to move beyond that and consider penalty? And again, I think that you have that more in some areas. And that's the other thing, is that you you have just really, really significant discrepancies between resources, training and experience, depending on where you are in any system. And so here in our area in Jacksonville, there are a lot of very well-trained, very well experienced attorneys doing this kind of work in other areas of the state and certainly all over this country. There are a lot of people who are doing this kind of work without that kind of experience, without that kind of resource, and ultimately to kind of bring it back around to to where I started. It just got me to the point where I decided I, I just didn't want to be involved in the system, in that system, in that system of 

Chris Moser [00:11:47] do you feel complicit in the system and the death penalty system? Is that a complicity feeling or what is it? 

Waffa Hanania [00:11:55] There's a little bit of that. It's a little bit of, you know, here I am pretending along with everybody else, that this is a fair process when I really don't think it is ultimately right. So there is a little bit of that. And there's and and there's also just the sheer emotional toll it takes. There's so much. There's so much misery in the criminal justice system and it all gets intensified when you get to capital cases, the cases where it is literally life and death for everybody, it is that for the victims families who've already suffered such a loss and who are having to deal with that, it's that certainly for your client in his or her family who are dealing with the impending noted notion that that this is this is coming down to them. And I just decided I just didn't want to. It was just too much. It's just too much. 

Alison DeBelder [00:13:03] How does that show up in your life? I mean, I certainly remember when we used to work together and you're handling a capital case, I think, when you were in trial or just on the eve of trial. I remember I could see it on your face, the pain and the weight and the gravity of what you were doing. Can you talk a little bit about what that means in your life? Like, for me, handling weighty cases, although I haven't handled capital cases, I would lose sleep, I would have nightmares, I would have an upset tummy. I would smoke too many cigarets. I would drink too much alcohol. Can you talk a little bit about how those things manifest for you? 

Waffa Hanania [00:13:45] All of those things. Know, and it's true. I mean it first of all, there's there's just the stress of it all. The one thing for me was always I didn't want to screw up the stress of getting it wrong. The stress of, you know, if it was a better, smarter lawyer, they could save this person's life. Mm hmm. Or if I just found a better way to say this, I could have gotten a life recommendation instead of a death recommendation from a jury. So it's the stress of just not wanting to screw up for it to not be my fault. That somebody is about, you know, just been sentenced to death and that's just a lot to deal with and, you know, I worked those kind of cases. I didn't try a ton of them. There's there's attorneys out there like and and other people. I mean, I don't want to just name a bunch of people that may not want to be named, but there's a lot of better attorneys than me who've done this for a lot longer than me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:14:53] I think attorneys want to be named Waffa. I could just interject. I've never met an attorney that doesn't want to be named, but I take your point. 

Waffa Hanania [00:15:00] But, yes, there's there's a lot of Gonzalo's index and phenyl God rest his soul, Patrick McGinnis, that we've just lost, Al Chipperfield, Lewis Bizzell and many, many more, who have done a lot more of these than I have and who have done them for a lot longer. And I applaud and and praise them for doing that. I just didn't want to have to deal with that anymore. And not just the stress, the stresses. You know, there's a reason why alcohol issues are problematic in our field. You know, there are times when I mean, it's never been an issue for me, but there are times when I probably drank too much, when I smoked too much, when I would have dreams or nightmares or couldn't sleep. All of those things. It's not a healthy lifestyle at all. It's not a healthy choice, emotionally or physically to do that kind of work. And I just mostly for the emotional aspect of it, quite frankly, it was mostly about it. I just don't think this is a system I want to be involved with anymore. And recently I was asked to be to get involved in federal death penalty case and because of a lot of reasons. But and I said I would, of course, because, like, if you if you need help, if if you think my help would be valuable, of course I will do whatever I can. So I did. And then at one point there was a discussion about whether I wanted to just do this kind of like just do it full time and go back to it. And I was like, no, no, 

Alison DeBelder [00:16:44] good for you. 

Waffa Hanania [00:16:46] Thank you. But now I just don't want to 

Alison DeBelder [00:16:50] I mean, I think that there's certainly a tension there. You describe the crushing responsibility, the weight of perhaps if I said the right thing, if I worked a little bit more, if I found the turn of phrase, if I wore a different pair of shoes or whatever, that that would make the difference in saving somebody's life. And that what's so strange about the work that you have done is that you have this incredible responsibility. And certainly there are cases or examples of where people did not do the work and did not put it in. And you can point to their failure as leading to somebody being convicted and getting the death penalty. But at the same time, so much is out of your control. Right. When you're standing in that courtroom about to give that speech, you feel and rightly so, the weight and the burden of your task. But all the things that led up to the person being arrested. Right. Like their entire experience in childhood and all of the insults and injuries that they experienced, that's beyond your control. You didn't get a say in that the crime itself, you didn't get a say in that, and there's something about that tension for me that I think makes it a particularly cruel task that you and your colleagues are handed. 

Waffa Hanania [00:18:17] Well, I agree with all of that, and that's one of the other real dramatic pieces of doing criminal defense for a living. I was thinking in the run up to this, I was thinking, you know, there's really very little about what I do for a living that is at all what I thought it would be when I decided to be a lawyer. You know, I don't know if that's that's true for you guys, but you know what people think about I don't think people think about when they're deciding to do this. I don't know that people think about how often you're going to be talking to people about the abuse in their lives. I don't think lawyers in training think about the fact that they're going to be talking about drug addiction, sexual abuse, alcoholism, neglectful parents, mental illness, all of those things. That certainly was not in my mind when I went to law school and decided that this is what I was going to do. And yet it is so much a part of what we do every day, what I do every day and what others like me do every day. Even if you're fairly self aware person going into law school and making a decision about what you're going to do for a living, you just don't really understand. And it's traumatic in a different way than than what I was talking about before, because as somebody who's a fairly empathetic person, I'm a sympathetic crier. And, you know, my motto has always been throughout my career, no crying in the courtroom, not for the lawyers anyway. So that's that's hard. That's a hard thing to do. You know, I. I see someone's misery. I hear their pain, and it impacts me and I. You're not allowed to to to let yourself show that as a professional doing this job that gets harder and harder as I get older brother. But it really does. You just don't think about the fact that you're going to be dealing with so much pain and suffering just in terms of your conversations with all the different players, in whatever case you're dealing with right now and how much you it really impacts you having to deal with those people who are mentally ill or intellectually challenged or any of the other ways in which people find themselves in the criminal justice system without the tools to deal with it, without the tools to to really be able to make rational decisions. And how difficult will be is their attorney to communicate all the things you need to to them? 

Alison DeBelder [00:20:59] Do you talk to your family and just for the listeners, you you have a big family. You are a daughter of immigrants to this country, and neither of your parents are involved in the law, although I know other relatives of yours are. But are the details of your work something that you share with your family? 

Waffa Hanania [00:21:23] Sometimes it's a difficult line to draw because on the one hand, you have to be really careful about client confidentiality and I never want to say anything that would, you know, endanger that. I have sometimes talked about in a general way the challenges of what I do. I remember what it brings to mind. I remember one time one of the first times I was standing in front of a jury arguing a child sex abuse case. And I'm standing in front of a jury and I don't know what your rules are here, there are none. I'm standing in front of a jury and I'm saying penis and vagina. And I'm talking about all these sexual acts. And I remember standing there in the moment and thinking to myself, my parents would just be aghast at the fact that their daughter this is I was much younger, but earlier in my career, it was like they would just be horrified at the fact that I'm standing in front of a courtroom full of strangers using these words. And again, it's one of those things is who would have thought that this is where you would be when you decided to be a lawyer or to just decided to do criminal defense? But I talked to them. I tried to explain concepts to them and to make them understand why certain things are the way they are in our system. And they're always extraordinarily supportive of me, if not of my clients. So they're always very, very supportive of whatever I need and not working too hard or taking care of myself and doing all the things I need to do. So I really appreciate that they really are there for me in that way. But on the other hand, you know, is not not being lawyers. It's difficult for anyone who's not who hasn't done this kind of job to really understand what it is that we do every day and how it affects you. 

Alison DeBelder [00:23:31] I want to ask about if there are specific facts from cases that stay with you and I will add that I have specific facts from your cases when we work together that haunt me. I know. Exactly. And I don't know you can I'm going to tell this part and you can tell me if if you want me to cut it out, if you think it's inappropriate. But I remember you because you're such a good raconteur and storyteller and lawyer and advocate. And so, of course, you should be doing this work. But I remember you coming from. You'd been to a crime scene and you walked through, I want to say a trailer. In my mind, it's a trailer, but I might have embellished that in your fancy Waffa high heeled shoes and that your feet were sticking in the blood on the floor. And I have this visceral understanding from like movie theaters when there's sticky candy floor. So I know kind of like that, that minuscule resistants on the bottom of your shoes. And I have this serious sense memory of this thing that didn't even happen to me that was so disturbing and grody and evocative. Is that a thing? Am I remembering that accurately? 

Waffa Hanania [00:25:03] Oh, no, you are, and I was like, she's going to bring up that the trailer floor. I knew, I knew, because it is it is one of those things that once you've experienced it, once you've told it to somebody, once they've experienced it vicariously through your words. And I don't mean to make light of this because it was a horrific case. It was extraordinarily sad what happened in that trailer. But once you've heard that those facts and those that story, it's really hard to ever get out of your mind. And yeah, no, that's that's the kind of thing that sticks with you, no pun intended. I swear to you, I did it. 

Alison DeBelder [00:25:49] And then you had to clean your shoes, right? Yes. I find myself wondering, what did you do with your shoes? 

Waffa Hanania [00:25:57] When we were at the crime scene, we were there weeks, months after this had happened in this trailer, had just sat locked up all that time. And it's exactly, you know, it's that kind of almost Velcro we kind of sound where you're kind of peeling your shoe off and you get that raspy noise that comes from that. And it was because of everything that was still on that trailer floor from. The violent death that had been. That had happened there, and that's the thing that I still think think about from time to time, it still sometimes pops into my my brain. That's not a thing that you can ever really get rid of. That's the problem with our job. You don't get to just ever put it away once it's there. Those kinds of things, they're there. 

Chris Moser [00:26:56] This is a bad question, but is it Florida and the summer, because I remember having to look at old old blood evidence, you know, and remembering the smells and all that from CCRC. So it's it's like all of the senses are traumatized in that moment. And then you leave with the visual of what your shoes look like, you know. Yeah. Wow. 

Waffa Hanania [00:27:23] Oh, now that's absolutely that's absolutely true. And again, I kind of go back to this idea that and look, you know, it's none of this is really ever about me. I know that we're talking about how all this stuff impacts the turning, impacts the person who's dealing with it. But ultimately, none of none of this is about me because there are people who have been traumatized by the events that led to that crime scene in ways that I don't ever truly know. And I'm thankful that I don't truly know. But even just as somebody who has to deal with this after the fact, it's just something that doesn't leave you. And there's you know, there's just not a whole lot of ways to deal with that later on. Mm hmm. 

Alison DeBelder [00:28:18] Have you ever thought about, like, talk therapy? 

Waffa Hanania [00:28:21] No, I'm just I'm I'm just not I'm sure that that is a very valuable thing for many, many people. And I but I'm just not one of those people. My motto in life is just just get on with it, you know, whatever, you know, you just you just pick yourself up and you just move on to the next thing. And I'm thankful that I'm not a family member of either a victim or an accused. I'm very thankful because, you know, even if it has affected me, it hasn't affected me to the point where I need to go to therapy or counseling or anything like that. Just pick yourself up and keep going. 

Alison DeBelder [00:29:06] Are there personality traits that you see in colleagues that you think predispose them to doing capital work, but also criminal defense generally? You know, because I think about it and it seems like there are some people who seem to be very sanguine, very, I don't know, well adjusted, doing this difficult work, very healthy and happy. And then there are people who spiral out of control, almost or not even almost. I'm sure you've seen people who have not handled it well. Is there anything that you can ascribe one or the other to? 

Waffa Hanania [00:29:43] I don't know, I think one of the things that I see in people who I believe have the most success and the greatest longevity in this field are people who are pragmatic, number one, and who have the ability to compartmentalize. Right. All those things. And just you're not going to fix. A lot of problems in this job, you're not going to be able to fix your client's issues, though that hasn't stopped me from trying sometimes to sometimes I feel like if I knew, if I could just again, the right words, I could just talk to them and explain to them that they shouldn't be doing these things in the right way, then they'll just stop. That hasn't worked out for me. But you have to be you're not going to be able to fix a lot of things, but you just deal with the problems that are in front of you. So I really think it's important to be pragmatic. You're not going to change the world. You're not going to fix the world. You can hopefully help one client in terms of putting forward that client's story in the best possible way to be their voice against the weight of the government, against the state, and to make sure that whatever happens to him, that it's done with as much adherence to the rule of law as possible. 

Alison DeBelder [00:31:14] Is there a way to teach that or to train people? I'm wondering if there's a way to impart some of that in a formal way. 

Waffa Hanania [00:31:26] I do think that there are some people who are more natural at those kinds of things, but there's also an awful lot you learn from just watching the people around you that you think are the most successful at the job that you want to do. And I certainly learned a lot from watching more senior people around me as I came up through the system. I forever thankful to have worked in the state public defender's office at the Fourth Judicial Circuit and all of the wonderful attorneys and people that I learned from and through, even just informally watching them and that I've continued to learn from throughout my career. So I think you can certainly do that. But I kind of like the idea of law schools or offices and or their training programs addressing this issue more concretely and more deliberately than just hoping people pick it up as they go along. What you don't want is cynicism in your defense attorneys. I've seen an awful lot of people through the years who aren't pragmatic. They're just cynics. And you don't want that because if you have someone who doesn't have any empathy or very little empathy for their client, who are cynical about your client, about what you can do to help them, what they could do to help them about the system itself, then those are the people that, in my experience, who are less much less successful. Right. In their outcomes for their clients. Right. So when I say pragmatism, I don't mean cynicism. 

Chris Moser [00:33:02] Do you mean sensibility? Do you mean sensibility and realistic? Yes. I looked it up because I was like, well, what is what do I think Waffa means? And that kind of is a definition of that. Is that what you meant? 

Waffa Hanania [00:33:18] Well, yes, I think that what you have to do, what I have to do, let me not give edicts about what other people have to do. What I have to do is to be very sensible to what I can and cannot do for my clients. As Alison said earlier, there is so much that's gone on before they even get close to me. I'm not the person involved in their lives. I'm not the person involved in their crimes. I'm not the person involved in their arrests or prosecutions. By the time they get me appointed to them, all of that stuff has already happened. So I have no control over any of that. So I have to be clear with them from the start that I'm going to do everything I possibly can to help you. But these are the realities of our situation. I think you have to be realistic. You have to be sensible and not only tell them that, but understand it for yourself, that you're not putting expectations on yourself for what you can do for a client that are unrealistic. You know, that's what I mean. But you also don't want someone who's just not going to care about doing what they can do for a client. 

Alison DeBelder [00:34:31] In some ways, I think clinical, not in a callous way, as you say, but clinical in the sense, you know, applying logic and reason to the well-defined task at hand. I am on a Facebook group for public defenders and former public defenders and I think probably public defender adjacent to people, you know, like social workers who work with public defenders in watching the conversations that are now being had in this forum, which I think is interesting, because it can have hundreds and I don't know it. I have thousands of people all over the country with lending their advice to people, and that can be powerful. And I think that there are some concrete ideas there. What are the other things that you can think of that might help? I know you're not you're not going to talk to your therapist about it. What are the things that you do you think would help? 

Waffa Hanania [00:35:21] I do think it's important. I think those types of forms are really important, the type of forum that you just were talking about, because talking to a group of people who understand what it is we go through, and I think I was taking this to Chris the other day when we met up, and that is at some point I came to a realization sitting in a courtroom where it was just it was like days of misery and sadness and the everybody else there, all the victims and their families, all the family and friends of your client, they they all have this pressing personal need to be there. I don't have to be there. I'm voluntarily subjecting myself to this immersion in misery for three days. And why the heck am I doing this? But you do it because it's an important thing to do and because this is a job I feel passionately about and feel passionate about the importance of good people doing this job. And so when you're around other people, like I just said, that I could see both of you guys nodding on my screen. So whereas if I said that to somebody who hadn't been in that position, like I say that to my family, their reaction is just like, well, just don't do it. Or or we'll just, you know, they because they don't get it. They don't get the idea that you still going to do this. That's not the point of this. But, you know, just recognizing the situation you're in, you guys get it? Yeah. So I really do think that ability to just sit down and talk with others and that may be something that offices throughout the country can do, is just maybe establish more defined support systems within their own offices and within the state where people have just a forum to go and just vent. And get it off your chest among people who are going to understand, 

Alison DeBelder [00:37:30] yeah, do you think that experience is intensified for you with the intersectionality of your race? You're an Arab woman and a woman. You're not just a woman. I mean, do you think that there are more layers to it than that? 

Waffa Hanania [00:37:44] That may be? I don't know that I ever really thought about whether my ethnicity impacted that in some way. It may be I just had not really ever thought of that before. I've always just perceived it as being discounting of my voice because it's the female voice as opposed to any other man in the room is, you know, more than I do Waffa. 

Chris Moser [00:38:11] I mean, I'm not trying to give anybody any credence because, you know, my own mother does this to me in front of my husband. You know, I'm teaching things and I'll say something casually and she'll just look at my husband, who's an artist, and go. Is that true? Like what? Thanks, Mom. So I'm not this question isn't to say that that's not the truth, but I'm just, in my mind, playing a version of this. And does your is your investigator writing things down and you're talking maybe he's you know what I mean? I'm just trying to kind of get a sense of why he would be looking at someone who's not asking him that question. As if. I guess that's all it could be, but it's it's infuriating. 

Waffa Hanania [00:38:59] It is only for the reason, the worst reasons that you can imagine. And these are not that people 

Chris Moser [00:39:07] even conscious, I'm sure. I mean on there. 

Waffa Hanania [00:39:09] Oh, yeah, absolutely. An unconscious reaction on their part. But it happens with too many male clients and then too many different settings. So the one time I'm remembering right now where I actually finally said to this client who's been who had been doing this through out or encounters during this case, we were actually standing outside the courthouse right after a hearing. So my investigator wasn't writing anything down. The three of us were standing in a group. I'm talking to my client and explaining what's just happened. I'm trying to instruct him on what's going to happen going forward. And he's turning and speaking to my investigator. And I finally just kind of snapped and said, no, stop it. You need to pay attention to what I'm saying. Right. And just couldn't deal with it anymore. Usually I'm just like, whatever. As long as he's listening, it doesn't really matter, I guess. But that time I was like, I just I think that's the only time I've ever actually confronted a client about their doing that. And by the way, it's not just clients. Right, exactly. So let's be clear that this is not a problem that's limited to our clients. It's throughout the system. 

Alison DeBelder [00:40:27] I mean, throughout the system, meaning support staff in offices, colleagues, other lawyers, courtroom personnel, judges. Is that what you mean? Because that's what I mean. 

Waffa Hanania [00:40:39] Sure. And yeah, no, no. And it's and that that doesn't mean that it's everybody. Right. And certainly it's less as time goes on, it's certainly not as prevalent as it used to be, but. 

Chris Moser [00:40:50] Yeah, right. It's also other women, by the way. That's true. Have been some of the worst, the worst people, you know, in my experience. So I don't want to just not include many women in that group as well. 

Waffa Hanania [00:41:06] I agree with you. And it is a learned behavior from all of the cues that we all grow up with. So it's it's across the board. But like I say, it's getting less with time. But it is it can be very challenging. It can be very challenging. As a woman in this field, I can't imagine having to do it as the first or second or third person. Right. Like like some of the people we know. So I'm sure I'm certainly certainly grateful. I'm not in that position. 

Chris Moser [00:41:37] Can I ask a question that we haven't asked people before, and it's not about criminal defense lawyers, but it's about prosecutors because we were asking a lot about the qualities of a good career or longevity, self care, competence kind of qualities. Do you think a good prosecutor has 

Waffa Hanania [00:42:01] a do, in fact, have some feelings, as I think most defense attorneys do, about what makes a good prosecutor? And there's lots of different things that I think go into somebody's being a better prosecutor. The first one is that you want somebody you know, and there's so many different things that I'm like I'm trying to figure out, do I rank them? What's more important than the other? And I'm not sure that one is more important than the other. One of the things you want is somebody who who's even keeled. And it's weird that it's the same kind of pragmatic. 

Chris Moser [00:42:37] It's pragmatic. 

Waffa Hanania [00:42:38] I was I was about to say that, which is it's the same kind of thing that you that you one of the defense said you want someone who is pragmatic and who has the ability to make those kind of micro adjustments in terms of weighing a case, you know, is this not every case can be the worst case ever. And unfortunately, you have some prosecutors where that's where they are. Oh, my God, this is the worst case ever. Well, is it not? Not a whole case. And so you want a prosecutor who has that ability to really weigh out their approach to a case. For that, you need somebody who is, as I said, even keeled, pragmatic. You want both life experience and legal experience. Now, obviously, new prosecutors aren't going to necessarily have the legal experience, but they they will get that. There's a reason why all of us are the defense or the prosecution side. We start out with cases that are not as important. They're important to our clients. But, you know, a petty theft is a great way to learn something before you graduate up the ranks. So the prosecutors that I have the most difficult time or have had the most difficult time throughout my career dealing with are those prosecutors who don't have those who don't have the kind of life experience to really understand how our clients get to where they they are. It's I sometimes think it's very difficult for people who have never experienced hardship in their personal lives, prejudice in their personal lives, abuse, all of those things that our clients have had to go through. We've all been blessed to have had good parenting, regardless of where your socioeconomic situation was. And by you know, I'm talking about the three of us here and so many people in this world have not been blessed with that. Right. And I don't know that some people have the ability to get outside of themselves and recognize the effect of that in others, even though they never suffered that themselves. And some people don't. 

Alison DeBelder [00:44:49] Well, so at the end of these Waffa, we have been, as you know, since you wrote one of them for us, thank you. We have been reading to people nice things that other people have said about them as a human or as a lawyer, just because some of the stuff, you know, you've been generous enough to sit down and talk to us about things that are kind of a bummer so that we can leave on a lighter note. And if you will indulge me, I did not ask anybody to write things about you, even though I talked to a number of our mutual friends and they knew that I was going to interview you and they were excited and look forward to hearing our interview because I wanted to write something about you. Waffa is the consummate professional, she is intelligent, prepared and passionate, she works hard for every client and works harder than everyone else. She's an incredible lawyer, but she is also an equally incredible citizen, daughter, sister, supervisor and friend, Waffa is a dedicated Democrat, but who also would remind me that even those with totally disparate political perspectives can and usually are equally well intentioned, wanting the best for their families, communities and countries. She is not naive, but somehow remains hopeful and retains the most generous spirit toward others, even when not the recipient of the same. Waffa is a person of faith with strongly held religious convictions. She demonstrates the commandment to love in her conduct in all that she does, she extends this to her friends of all different faiths and most graciously to her atheist friends who are not always so gracious. Waffa is an avid reader not only on matters related to the law, but geopolitics, science and fiction. I have seen how injustices pain her personally and I have seen her respond by redoubling her efforts and committing to do all that she can to help. Waffa is a better person than most, she's funny and smart and good. I love her. 

Chris Moser [00:47:10] Alison, that is beautiful. 

Alison DeBelder [00:47:12] It's just true. It is. 

Waffa Hanania [00:47:16] It was incredibly kind, it's it's you know, it's hard for me to to to hear things like that about myself, but it was so nice. It's always so nice to hear what others really think of you. And I thank you for that. And I love you both. 

Alison DeBelder [00:47:35] We'd love you to. Trauma injustice is created by Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. Please be sure to like review and read us. It means a lot.