Diana Johnson

Chris and Alison talk to Diana Johnson, an attorney who specializes in representing children in the juvenile justice system.  Diana is also a Florida Bar Board Certified Expert in Criminal Appellate Law. We discuss her work in private practice and as an assistant public defender and Diana shares healthy ways she's developed to deal with the stress she encounters in her work.

Transcript

Johnson_Transcript.mp3

Alison DeBelder [00:00:01] This is trauma injustice, this is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma in the justice system. We also talk about the ways that law school and training have aided or failed the people we interview and ought to be improved. These conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. 

Chris Moser [00:00:35] I'm Chris Moser. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:36] And I'm Alison DeBelder. 

Chris Moser [00:00:38] Our guest today is Diana Johnson. She's an assistant public defender, now leading the juvenile division for the Fourth Judicial Circuit in Duval County, Florida. Previously, she was in private practice, having co-founded Johnson and Lubrano, a firm specializing in criminal trials and appeals. She is a Florida bar certified expert in criminal appellate law and a member of the Tennessee bar as an assistant public defender and in private practice. Diana has tried over thirty five criminal cases and handled over 90 appeals this year. She was recognized as both a legal elite and super lawyer in the area of criminal law and has previously been recognized as a rising star in criminal law by Super Lawyer magazine from twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen. Diana is a member and past president of the First District Appellate American Inns of Court and is a member of the Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, where she serves as the Amoco's committee chair and a director at large, the Northeast Chapter of Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and the Jacksonville Bar Association. Diana previously served on the Florida Bar Association's Juvenile Court Rules Committee from 2012 two thousand eighteen. She has graciously agreed to speak with us today about her personal experiences in what she says as an individual is her views and should not be construed as speaking for her office as she's currently in. Welcome, Diana. 

Diana Johnson [00:02:22] Thank you. That girl sounds like an overachiever. 

Chris Moser [00:02:24] I know I was reading that and I was like, oh, my gosh, smarty pants. I feel super intimidated. You've accomplished an amazing amount. When did you pass the bar? 

Diana Johnson [00:02:34] Tomorrow is actually 14 years. Oh, my gosh. Yes. 

Chris Moser [00:02:39] Well, happy anniversary. Thank you. That is very, very cool. How did you come to decide to go to law school? 

Diana Johnson [00:02:49] I have the one good guidance counselor story from college, so I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I thought I was going to teach elementary school and then I changed it to higher education so that I could also coach cheerleading. And then I had friends leaving college, going to teach middle and high school who looked three years older than these kids and were just telling me horror stories. So I thought, I will do want to teach. So I talked to a guidance counselor about what maybe my next step could be if I didn't want to teach. I like social sciences. That's what I thought I was going to teach. So she was looking at history. She was looking at a paralegal studies class and I thought, I'll try that. I entered this paralegal studies class and I just loved it. It was amazing. The paralegal that taught it was phenomenal. And I got my first day in college after like four years, just truly, truly loved and then thought, OK, well, why would I just be someone's legal assistant or a paralegal when I can go to law school? So I went to law school. 

Chris Moser [00:04:01] And did you develop your passion for criminal law while in law school? And how did you become a criminal defense lawyer? 

Diana Johnson [00:04:09] No, I was not interested in criminal law school. I really enjoyed my criminal procedure. I really enjoyed constitutional law. But I went to law school wanting to do family law, divorce and adoption, mainly because my mom was a single parent raising two children and multiple others that were not ours. And when a family went TDY, we were military stationed on the base. When a family went TDY, we had two beautiful redhead twins, boy and girl, who we regularly babysat. I was very young, but they hated that. So they scream bloody murder. They were lost in our care for the weekend. Parents never came back. We had to call us at the time. How old were 

Chris Moser [00:04:58] you when that happened? 

Diana Johnson [00:05:01] I'll say 11 ish, 

Chris Moser [00:05:02] wow, and what's what is TRD Weiming 

Diana Johnson [00:05:06] not that not to you. They're gone. TBI's different. A wall. A wall. Yes this is correct. OK, yes, a wall. And so we called us and then said, but we'll keep them. And because my mom was a single parent at the time, we could not keep them in our care. So they had to go into foster care for a bit. I think they were ultimately reunited, but still that pissed me off. And so I thought, OK, I want to change this and I want to make sure that everyone can adopt regardless of their status. Do your options in divorce. And then I realized that's not really what I wanted to do. I was on a career in law school and I really enjoyed that. So I started looking for clerkships and I was able to get a job with the Third Circuit as a trial clerk. So I worked for the county and circuit judges over there. A lot of the things that we did were post conviction and there were pro say they came from these inmates that were held for periods of time. And the Third Circuit is the state between Jacksonville and Tallahassee. It encompasses Columbia, Madison, Dixie, Suwannee counties are the bigger ones. And prosy means that a person is representing themselves, not with defense counsel. 

Chris Moser [00:06:33] And those the quality of those briefs or the persay litigants paperwork was probably pretty diverse, right? In in the quality it 

Diana Johnson [00:06:44] was most most of them were handwritten. Everyone actually has some pretty good handwriting, but on regular lined paper, all caps. And somewhere in there, there may be a claim and we search for it and then there thereafter search to determine whether they get a hearing, whether we deny it on the merits, whatever it might be. And so that really sparked my interest in criminal law before that. I don't know that I truly had an interest in it. But when I saw everyone made mistakes, including the judges and that people's lives are at stake, I could challenge not only the police and the state attorneys, but could also be the representative for the judge to show, hey, this is how it's supposed to be done by law. And that's when I entered the criminal arena. 

Chris Moser [00:07:35] When you were in law school, did you have any training on dealing with trauma or stress? 

Diana Johnson [00:07:42] Not in law school as a class or community aspect. But I do remember and we talk about this frequently at the time there was a professor and during our two or three day orientation, she talked about substance abuse and stress. And it really sounded more like a scary adventure. This is going to happen to you versus this is how it's not going to happen to you. 

Chris Moser [00:08:14] Wow. So we're going to talk a lot, probably about your new role in taking over the juvenile division and the scope of that. Do you enjoy working with children more than adult clients? 

Diana Johnson [00:08:31] I can't say I enjoy it more, but I will say that I've often told my adult clients, my juvenile clients are juveniles. For the most part, everything is about rehabilitation. And so there's ability to work in mitigation that is actually considered versus adults who might have repeat offenses. And the state and court no longer care about certain mitigation. So I feel more hopeful in juvenile court. But as far as representation goes, I like just having client interaction, period. 

Chris Moser [00:09:10] So we ask people that come on our show about experience they've had with direct trauma. And what we mean by that is have you ever been at the jail or a facility and been physically threatened or attacked by a client or had some sort of a dangerous situation in court by a witness or a victim that you could talk to us about today? 

Diana Johnson [00:09:36] No adds to a gun or as to being an immediate fear from a client while visiting. I have had a hit out on me and we did had that was when I was a before leaving to private practice a client. Actually called me and said, hey, this other person is asking everyone to find out your home address, and I knew this particular client was extremely upset because he had previously taken probation rather than went to trial, then you violated his probation. And of course, there, you know, we had to wait it out, but it wasn't looking great. And so once we found that out, I went through the office. And, of course, we were able to complicate that case. At the time I had roommates, I had to tell them, like, hey, I don't think anything's going to happen. There's really no public record us to where we live. But just so you know, we have it out or someone's looking for our address. So, yeah, that's really it was. 

Chris Moser [00:10:49] It was. That's all. That's all. Someone just I just heard someone might want to kill me for whatever reason. What was the reason? Was it a codefendant? Was it someone that was angry at you, a former client? Because I was a little unclear. 

Diana Johnson [00:11:07] I was currently representing him on a violation of probation. I don't know or I don't recall if there was a new charge as well, but it was definitely a violation of probation on aggravated battery. And we were going to be getting out of that any time soon and we were just pissed. 

Alison DeBelder [00:11:24] How did your roommates handle that? Were they lawyers, too? 

Diana Johnson [00:11:29] One was a lawyer. One is her little sister. So she's much younger than she was, 11 years younger than us. But the lawyer, I think they just find it fascinating, more scared, obviously, than I was, because I thought, well, maybe it was a credible threat. I don't know. But of course, they were fearful and we kind of watch our backs for maybe a week or so. And then I think we forgot about it. 

Chris Moser [00:11:58] In doing your work in private practice or at the public defender's office at various times, have you ever experienced physical or emotional impacts due to the stress or trauma? And what I mean by that is like difficulty sleeping, migraines, things of that nature. 

Diana Johnson [00:12:18] The most severe thing that happened was I have eczema, I always have at least since high school, but it's not usually anywhere but like maybe a patch on my arms or my thighs. During a extremely publicized case, when it came closer to sentencing, I developed a rash of eczema from my neck all the way over my torso. Wow. And it was there for a week or two. But the most severe reaction I've had to stress. Other than that, I don't get migraines or anything like that. Of course, there are things that keep me up at night. I have what I would call insomnia, which has gotten better with my puppy. So there's always cases on your mind. But that was the most severe reaction I've ever had, and it was pretty intense at another time. So I think that same case. But my grandma passed away June 3rd of twenty eighteen and the sentencing here wasn't until June 8th. And so I had to the imposition. We'd already had the sentencing hearing, but the imposition was on the 8th. And so I had to wait. This is being in Jacksonville by myself. My whole family is in Missouri. And so thankfully I've got a fabulous, loving, supportive family of non relatives here. But to be away from your family for those five days, that that was really tough and it took every ounce I had to just push on for just five days. 

Chris Moser [00:14:01] Wow. So you mentioned your dog and you mentioned kind of like your work family and your support system. What are the healthy ways that you cope with troubling facts that you see on a day to day basis in the cases that you handle? 

Diana Johnson [00:14:18] Well, until recently, there were no healthy habits, but I guess running and walking the beach now, just like getting home, playing with puppies, going out to before the pandemic, going out for drinks and dinner with friends, curling up to watch us and things like that that are healthy. 

Chris Moser [00:14:41] And what about unhealthy ways prior to that? 

Diana Johnson [00:14:44] Oh, God. Lots and lots and lots of alcohol. Lots. And even during the pandemic, we never got to pause. Like a lot of lawyers got a pause from the day to day grind lawyering, criminal defense and not and certainly juveniles are not because we were up and running the is St. Patty's Day and the world ended Friday the 13th, the weekend before that same Saturday. So the 14th we had a meeting with the juvenile judge. This was while I was still in private practice saying this is how we learn. Zoome So we all got on. It wasn't mandatory, but of course, because that girl's an overachiever, she went to this meeting because I had no clue what Zoome was. So I learned how to do that. March 14th, we were up and running that Monday in regular juvenile court, so we never got a pause. And during the pandemic, you're home, you're working from home, the food and drinks you can grab on the go. And I just realized my my stress level because of lawyering, but also because of the pandemic and the juxtaposition of people being out of work and desperately upset and desperately needing money and me looking at, OK, well, you're out of work. What are you doing right now? We didn't have a pause. So it was weird juxtaposition of people being laid off or people not being able to work and maybe vacationing still where I'm like in a hole because we're in a pandemic, but we're also working. And so that stress level was just through the roof. And as my unhealthy coping skills were drinking, I was playing with my puppy as well, but I was drinking as well. And so it's now six months. I have not had alcohol because it was not healthy. And I finally said I got I got to have healthier measures. And now that I'm leading other people and teaching them how to cope and be a leader and be a better attorney, it really was a non issue of transition. 

Chris Moser [00:17:06] That's fantastic. And then the transition back to the public defender's office. And that new role is also kind of like another reason to have like a new change. Right, because you have somewhat of a change of scenery, even though you're still practicing the same area. 

Diana Johnson [00:17:22] Absolutely. And I mean, even though we're now back to one hundred percent, we're supposed to be. But even then, when I came over in September, it was there are multiple people in the office who had more social interaction than I had for almost a year, which was really nice. 

Chris Moser [00:17:42] So what are your thoughts on things like talk therapy or meditation? Have you used them yourself? What do you think about them as tools for lawyers experiencing vicarious trauma or direct trauma? 

Diana Johnson [00:17:58] I think everyone should be in talk therapy, as you call it, is awesome. It makes you I think I'm so self aware and for the most part I am. But you learn so much more about why things trigger you, why things affect you. That person's not fucking working. Why does that trigger you? Right. Because your mom was a hard worker and your grandma was a hard worker and they made sure that you were a hard worker. And anyone that's not a hard worker is less deserving of your time. Right. But that's instilled in you. And you maybe you don't know that. So I talk therapy, definitely pull things out of you and voices. That was the biggest thing for me is like, oh, why do you think that way about yourself? Who said that to you? What do you mean? No one said that to me. And then you go, Oh yeah, OK. I remember that 20 years ago someone said X. And that has always been ingrained in your head. And you carry these little things from one person to another to another that add up into your anxious mind if you have. And I think that makes it even worse. And so, yes, talk therapy is fabulous and can work out so many things. Meditation I've never gotten into. I'm not a yoga person, but I do have friends that desperately enjoy it and say it's necessary so I don't do it. But other people do enjoy it. I was working as a private practitioner, I think in October of twenty fourteen, so we opened our business February 1st of twenty fourteen. And while both of us were good attorneys and we were able to thankfully just practice what we wanted, which was criminal defense and maybe some side measures of that, like injunctions and sealing expungement, we were not business people. And when you are working for a public entity, as you guys probably know, you don't appreciate or really necessarily need to network when you are working for yourself. There are people, of course, that know you from your government practice, but there are others that you have to get to know. You have to get to know the community. You have to get to know people in different areas of law because it's not your criminal friends or criminal practitioner friends that are referring you cases. It's the people that don't do criminal practice. So we had a network and we were very aware of it and very conscious in doing it regularly. So that took up a bunch of outside time, nights and weekends. I did appeals and I did trials not only in adult court but juvenile court. And it was a lot. So I knew that I was more stressed than I had ever been, which it takes a lot. So I sought out someone to talk to. And I think when you when I went to the Web, it was like she deals with cognitive behavioral therapy and stress management techniques, something like that. So that's why 

Alison DeBelder [00:21:18] do you think that there's still a stigma? Because I'm finding that I feel like the older folks that we talk to are less likely to ever have participated in therapy for Taleo. Or tell you exactly right. I guess I just want your take on whether you see that changing this is something that people are happy to talk about and encourage others to do. Or do you think there's still stigma? There's absolutely still a stigma. 

Diana Johnson [00:21:45] However, I think the younger generations younger than us, like I'm I'll be forty two this year, the younger generations are much more open about it. It's almost like a Pokemon trading card, baseball trading cards like, oh, you're on this, I'm on this. How much is your MG? And so it's really interesting to see that in comparison to what we grew up with. So there is certainly social stigma. I know the bar and the young lawyers division of the bar are seeking to break that stigma. But as with anything, when it's ingrained, it takes a long time to get over that. I remember I was in my second year of law school that I never dealt with stress or anxiety. Maybe it was really anxiety, not stress. I never dealt with it before. And I remember calling my grandma and my mother and saying, I think I'm going crazy and I don't know what's the matter. And I just keep crying for no reason. I'm driving home from school and I'm crying. Oh, you're fine. I'm like, OK, for real. I think maybe drugs are like a person to talk to and like, oh, no, no, you're fine. And eventually it was but that was their take on it. It was like, well, we don't do that. And so then for the most part, for ten years or so, six, seven years or so, you just manage your at the beach, you run, you have fun with your friends and you just do what you got to do because everyone's doing it. And at that time, certainly no one was talking about therapy at all. And so I think even in twenty fourteen when I started, most people weren't really talking about therapy and I am very open. I think that the way we break the stigma is to make it a normalcy. The more you talk about it, the more other people are going to feel comfortable talking about it. I've never been pregnant, but I know so many friends that have had miscarriages and people just don't talk about it. So then you put those people together that, you know, have had miscarriages and they just feel so much different when they're able to talk to someone about their experience, because not everyone has experience that not everyone is experienced, extreme anxiety or crippling depression. And so when you talk about it, you go, oh, wait, I'm not is OK, great. And it makes you feel like you are not crazy, that you are normal and that most everyone else is going through this. So as a supervisor, I can recognize that in certain people. And it's great because I can say, hey, here's some tips that have helped me. Maybe you should try this. 

Chris Moser [00:24:42] I love before we hit the record button Alison I we're talking about vulnerability and I was teaching a class and broke down, introducing a woman, African-American woman who has lived through various decades of landmark Supreme Court cases. And it was on the day of yet another shooting by police of an unarmed black person. And I it just. Happened like very suddenly and it surprised me and I had never done that in front of a class before, but I think that's sort of my own evolution into vulnerability is strength. And, you know, this whole idea that would make you look less powerful or less strong is I guess I'm working through that in my own professional career. So I'm just so happy that you're so open with advocating how much having a therapist helps you. And I hope that younger lawyers and I see this in my students, they seem to be a little more aware of asking questions and interviews about work life balance or leave. 

Diana Johnson [00:26:08] Yeah. Did someone feed them the. 

Chris Moser [00:26:10] I'm trying to feed them that and how to negotiate a good salary, you know, as a woman. 

Diana Johnson [00:26:16] Right. It's like the question we've been getting that a lot on the hiring or the I guess interviewing committee. And yes, we've been getting a lot of that. And it's new. But it reminds me of when the inmates hear, oh, this claim was successful, we're getting a hearing, then you get an influx of those same claims and everyone else's motion for a conviction. So it's interesting. It's like, oh, we should ask about this. Right, because we have been hearing a lot. 

Chris Moser [00:26:50] That's great. And I know that it's yeah, it's great. It is harder, though, for employers. Like I helped the state attorney's office find someone recently and they were having similar problems with really kind of thinking ways, thinking of ways they can update their policies and make them more attractive to compete with maybe private practice that offer more not just in salary, but just in quality of life stuff. 

Diana Johnson [00:27:17] Well, I'm so old fashioned and I still think you should be in the office and the police officer and state attorney's office are doing trials. And I don't know how you do that even remotely part time. So I do have that little old school friends in me as to the work day to work life balance now, because I lost so much of my life in private practice, I have made a point not to bring my computer home or my work cell phone home. And when I leave here for the day, whether it be at five or seven thirty, the work is done, I'm done. I walk home, I get to play with my puppy, I get to watch TV or do whatever makes me happy, but I'm done for the day and that has immensely changed my mental health, my stress level, my anxiety, and I will never, ever go back. So that is the way I've managed it. But I think that's hard at first. So what I've actually been telling people is if you start taking everything home and working every weekend when it's not a trial that you're prepping for, you're already setting yourself up to have to backtrack like I did. And if you can start from the get go say eight o'clock is my my time. Right. You make your own time, whatever it might be, where you just turn off your phone, you don't open your computer between those hours and that's the way you get that work life balance. But you have to start from the beginning because it's so hard to backtrack. Yeah. 

Chris Moser [00:28:57] So what do you think about the type of person cut out for public defender work in particular, or learning resilience? Like, do you think you just there's something innate that makes you a good public defender, not someone that's there just for a couple of years to get experience, but someone who's really passionate about defending poor people. 

Diana Johnson [00:29:21] Yeah, I mean, I think you have to have empathy and compassion, if you don't have that, then you're not going to listen to the client. You're not going to have that passion to drive you through, to see it through for the client when you are down and have no energy left. So empathy and compassion for sure. Resiliency is weird because I think that's one of the things that I recently learned about myself. I used to hear like, wow, how did you make it here? And I would go, like, that's the worst question I've ever heard. And who do you think you are? And my mind, of course, was like, oh, your your mom had you at 20 and she was single and she's white. And you were raised by her white family and no one went to college. And you're the first one to go to law school and. Wow. Oh, my gosh. That is just that is just something. I mean, wow. And I'm thinking that's just what you fucking do. So that used to really upset me. And now I understand that resiliency that people are probably thinking about and not like putting me and my family down there thinking, oh, OK, I had all these resources and I made it here and so did you. And that is great that with what you had, you were able to still make it here and beyond, I think is what they're they're trying to say in a very backwards way. 

Chris Moser [00:30:50] I think it's supposed to be a compliment on your grit and intelligence, because I hear similar things as like a high school dropout and first generation college student, all that kind of stuff. And it's like kind of like a backhanded compliment. 

Alison DeBelder [00:31:06] I don't know if you know this, Diana, but Chris, actually, one of the most awesome things that she does at her school is she is a mentor. Do you do the dinner every year for first generation college students? 

Chris Moser [00:31:20] We did it. We got an award for the Florida bar last year, but we try to do something in that vein every year to recognize first generation college students and then people aspiring to law school in particular, because I think the diversity of thought that comes with that experience and then coming from just personally like a lower socioeconomic class and then it's just so valuable and I think is so necessary in our profession. 

Diana Johnson [00:31:58] I am so leery about certain outlying counties, like I would tend not to certain 8th Circuit counties because I just thought it might be actually beneficial 

Chris Moser [00:32:13] for the client because why an explicitly 

Diana Johnson [00:32:17] white male right to sit in the white male rather than the black female? So that that was a decision that I made. It was a decision that Matt made. It was a decision that I made and agreed to carry it out for me. That that that is just something I still think about, because it's not really about me per say. It's about the client. And you want to do what's best for the client. 

Alison DeBelder [00:32:47] Because of the very special role that you play as a defense attorney, you're sometimes put in this awkward position that you wouldn't that you would handle differently in any other part of your life. But here where you are, this person's champion in this person's advocate, I think you find that you have to say, I'm not here to solve misogyny today. I'm here to get this person an excellent result. And sometimes that entails doing really gross things like asking a white man to come and have the same conversation that somebody else. It wouldn't be effective in. And I don't know what we do about that because we've all done it right. And I don't know how you fix it, because that's not your job in that moment. 

Diana Johnson [00:33:40] No, the way I am trying to fix it is by talking to qualified. People of color, qualified females, and letting them know when there are certain leadership roles available, whether it be in the community or in a legal office or on the bench. We have to promote each other. We have to let each other know that these things exist, that they are qualified because we as females and and Taipei lawyers don't always see it in ourself. I just told someone, hey, you know what you need to do? You need to write out a bio and you need to redo your resume, not because you're applying for anything, but because you seeking a raise, because you're seeking a leadership role and you need to see yourself on paper and go, oh, hot damn, who is that person? They are awesome. They're qualified and they deserve more money. And so getting people involved, letting them know about leadership and judgeships, I think that's the way we change it. Otherwise, we're always going to be in that position to ask the white male to handle something because it's the best situation for our client now and other opportunities of life, like you said, Alison, or run through that place. My nephew, who I think is four at the time, was told he doesn't play with Sterling at preschool by two other white kids. And he was like, why don't we play with Sterling? And they said, because he's black, he's mixed like me. So thankfully, it just so happened that that happened that week and that weekend I was going to be there. So I came up maybe early and I picked him up from school on Thursday and Friday and all my glory grabs when we skipped out of school so everyone could see he has a he doesn't just play with certainly it's in his family. So in that situation, you can barge in and make a difference. But in other situations, when it's at the detriment potentially of your client, you have to do what's best for them. 

Alison DeBelder [00:35:57] But I think I think you're 100 percent right about lifting other people up and encouraging people to step into positions of authority is important. I think also I just saw an article somebody posted about the maybe the Jacksonville Women Lawyers Association was taking up equal pay matters. 

Chris Moser [00:36:16] Yeah, that's yesterday. I saw that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:36:18] Yeah. And so I think also encouraging women to talk about how much they're getting paid. So we don't everybody doesn't get Lilly Ledbetter, right? Yeah. Which is something Chris and I have talked about and it makes people really uncomfortable. 

Chris Moser [00:36:32] Claimant it, you know. I encourage people to I get great joy in trying to help people negotiate their first salaries or even like their law school applications, because it's stuff I never had anybody help me with. 

Diana Johnson [00:36:47] Absolutely. And it's helpful. It's necessary. I mean, I was just talking to my mom the other day and after I spoke to a group of coastal kids and they said, what's the one thing you would have told yourself in law school that you wish you would have known? And they said absolutely nothing regarding school. I really enjoyed my time there. And so what I would have told myself, though, is like, learn about words. I have a beautiful beach side mansion that I don't live in. Mm hmm. Because it all goes to floods. And so that's the one thing I wish I would have known. And when I talked to my mom, I was like, I know we went to the library one day and looked at like grants or something, but left handed. I'm biracial. She's military. Like, I should have gone to school for fucking. I did not. I did not. But I know there were things that were out there, but we just didn't know how to look like I. I don't know that we had a career counselor. And if we did, I didn't care because I wasn't really going to college to go to college. I was going to college because that's what everyone else was doing. And so I wish and I love that dinner that you're doing every year, Chris, because I think that's another way to show this is normal. This is you're not the only one. And that's really the thing. You sit there and go everyone else has dads and grandpas and moms and grandmas that are lawyers. And I'm a I'm a first generation college graduate and now a first generation post graduate. And I'm biracial. And all these people are in the same room and they know each other and they know each other's families and they're just such a big deal. You get through it. But sometimes you need that glass of whiskey in your hand so that you can have that liquid courage to say, oh, yeah, I know we're all here together because we're equal. We are equal in your mind as a first generation and lesser other people around you. They're networking and similarly situated capacities. It's hard to remember that. 

Chris Moser [00:39:01] You know, what else I think is interesting in our age group is the education that we received because it was sort of like we don't see color. You know, everything's 

Diana Johnson [00:39:12] I grew up in the Panhandle, 

Chris Moser [00:39:14] OK? Well, I mean, I was I was someone my dad was Mexican and my mom is from Boston. And, you know, as an undergrad, I had to petition for more money because they made like eleven thousand dollars a year. And I never really attributed it to his ethnicity. To me, it was sort of like the monetary pieces, because in South Florida, it was pretty diverse and quite frankly, like people that recognize me as being Hispanic or other Hispanic people, other or racists, like, what are you you know, 

Diana Johnson [00:39:53] that's my pet peeve question. So, yeah, it's it's like a great 

Chris Moser [00:39:57] question for for racist people. But I always put, like, human race on my voter ID like I always wanted merit to be what people looked at, you know, and I still do. But I also know that the world isn't colorblind and I encourage students to, like, embrace all of those parts of who they are because it really does enhance the job that they do. 

Diana Johnson [00:40:24] And I think we do see it from the younger generation. I think they are more open to, you know, human rights, civil rights. It's it's something that maybe when they were growing up, that's just something that everyone had around them. Of course, we Thor up our pockets of rural areas. But I think for the most part, the younger generation is open, inclusive and willing to learn. 

Chris Moser [00:40:55] Yeah, no, it's I'm cautiously optimistic about the next five or ten years with not their demands, but just what they expect. Right. Because they've been taught things are equal or what equality is. And they want to see what they've been told. Right. We never asked you any specific questions about images or 911 tapes that kept you up at night. You said you had insomnia. Like, is there anything like that graphic or the vicarious trauma of the sadness of a particular client that really stuck with you over the years that you could describe? 

Diana Johnson [00:41:46] Yeah, there was a direct file of clients that we had for sentencing, ultimately got WYO sanctions, you both under sanctions, which was great. But when we went to court for his first sentencing hearing, his mom was not present, nor was anyone. I have a few letters from family and things of that nature, but no real mitigation due to no one really helping the child. And, you know, there wasn't much there. But Mom was supposed to be there and the judge was like, where's mom is a female judge? And you could tell she was just very disturbed that this child, who was 15 or 16, had no one and she was almost in tears. Therefore, I was almost in tears. We passed it so that someone else could be present. I think we appointed she appointed a guardian ad litem so that at least the child would have someone other than his defense attorney there. 

Alison DeBelder [00:42:53] Can you explain what a guardian ad litem is? 

Diana Johnson [00:42:56] Yes, a guardian ad litem is a person who looks out for the best interests of the child, whereas I or an attorney ad litem would be the expressed interest of the child. What does the child want versus what does the child need? And so that was very helpful. I still don't think Mom showed up at the final sentencing hearing, but everything worked out. But that was extremely sad because he's 15 or 16 and no one is there for him. And then there were two cases that I had on appeal. I can't talk about those facts. And they're just so graphic and and unique. But they were back to back appeals, and because of the nature of the crimes and the and one young age of the victim, I remember needing a pause in between going back and forth between the two of them and thinking, goodness gracious, I can't do anything else right now. These are just so much. 

Alison DeBelder [00:44:07] What are the types of things for people who've never done this work that you maybe regularly see clients have experienced, 

Diana Johnson [00:44:18] a lot of them have not only experienced a death in the family, but witnessed a death in the family or close friend. And that's all before the age of 16, 17, 18. They must always have Department of Children and Family Services DCF interaction. So we are able to request those records and sometimes, well, a couple of times there has been no history whatsoever. And the DCF person that gives these records like, wow, there's no history. Are you sure that's the date of birth? So it's not frequent. 

Alison DeBelder [00:45:02] And what types of things do you see in a DCF report? 

Diana Johnson [00:45:05] Yes, allegations of physical trauma, allegations of. Neglect leaving the home where there might be a three, four and eight year old and eight year olds in charge, no food, hoarders, roaches, things of that nature. I have been to homes where I don't feel comfortable sitting down, let alone eating or sleeping. I've been to homes where. Driving down the street like I hope nothing happens to me, I hope nothing happens to me. I parked my car. I hope nothing happens to me when I got to that apartment. 

Alison DeBelder [00:45:49] So not a place that you would feel comfortable encouraging a child to play outside? No. 

Diana Johnson [00:45:56] So and that's for the most part, we represent indigent children, meaning they don't have money to hire an attorney. Their parents don't have money to hire an attorney. And they are living where they can afford to live on a salary or two. Sometimes SSI from the government based upon mental health needs or educational needs. A lot of our children have extreme educational needs. And so learning the school system, the school Harry and things of that nature is something that I have to do and my staff has to do so that we're knowledgeable on all things that are mitigation for these children. 

Alison DeBelder [00:46:40] Do you find it easier or more difficult to cultivate a relationship with child clients where they're willing to disclose traumatic events in their past that aren't revealed in DCF school educational records 

Diana Johnson [00:47:02] heard or they don't consider themselves victims and they're certainly not yet vulnerable? Right. Whereas adults can say, oh, this happened, this happened, this happened because they know about mitigation and they want you to know about it. So we might be able to help them, whereas children will divulge all the facts to officers when they are detained, they are more hesitant to say, yes, I've been a victim of human trafficking. Yes, I've been a victim of domestic battery or sexual battery because, you know, they they don't understand that that is a victimization. And unfortunately, in some communities, it's just the not like for me, I went to college and I went to law school. That was normal for me to do. Why are you questioning that? Just because my mom was 20 and no one graduated. And, you know, why are we questioning that? Let's just what you do, that's just what they do. That's what you see. That's what happens. And so for the children, they don't know that St. Augustine exists, right? They don't know that the panhandle exists. They know this community and what happens in that community. And it's normal. So for me to say, oh, my God, you've been a victim of this. I mean, that happened, right? Essentially. Right. But, yeah, I think it's the lack of seeing yourself as a victim, the lack of seeing another side of a community 

Chris Moser [00:48:33] which relates to poverty and just the smallness of where you are, right? 

Diana Johnson [00:48:39] Absolutely. 

Alison DeBelder [00:48:41] So you've talked a little bit about the difference between children and adults as clients, I'm really interested in the ways trauma showed up for you in your appellate work, because I understand you're very accomplished appellate attorney apart from all this direct trial representation. What does that look like for clients or for me, any at all? 

Diana Johnson [00:49:06] Yes, I mean, for me, the deadlines are extremely strict. The stakes are much higher because we've already been convicted and now you're trying to get a court to reverse that. You're trying to find reasons for reversal. And some attorneys, Ruggieri, right. God love her. She preserves the record like hell. And when I get originary a case from trial to appeal, I'm like, OK, cool, this is going to be awesome. And then there are other records that you get and you go, oh, that's going to be you for that trial attorney. What's a 30? So it is ineffective assistance of counsel at the trial level, meaning you did not make objections or you should have or let evidence come in when it should not have, et cetera, et cetera. For that, the anxiety level is different. It is like going to trial all the time. Does that make sense? Rather than doing your pretrial work and you're going to court filing motions? It is. It is a trial. Every week you're reading a huge record. You are trying to save someone's life and you are on a strict timeline. So that was always very forefront for me. As for clients, there isn't so much interaction like there is when you're in trial court. And most all of my appeals, my client was incarcerated to an extremely long prison sentence for the most part. And so we had set up legal calls. But you would talk to them mostly about the issues on appeal and things of that nature. I wasn't doing the regular handholding of a trial attorney and client, so if there were issues, I'd bring it up to their classification officer. But other than that, there really wasn't that handholding, that trauma informed conversation. You know, if they they told me, you know, I'm in the box and suicidal or I'm thinking about doing self-harm, I'm thinking about beating this guy up because he won't stop looking at me, then you would just talk to the CEO and say, hey, I think that medical needs come to that. They can talk to a professional. But short of that, really, there is not that handholding. There wasn't that regular conversation that you would have with a trial client they speak to weekly. 

Chris Moser [00:51:43] Diana, do you think there's anything that we didn't cover or Alison, do you have any follow up questions? 

Alison DeBelder [00:51:51] Yeah, I don't have anything specific. Is there anything, Diana, the like leading up to today that you reflected on that relates to trauma in the justice system that we haven't talked about? 

Diana Johnson [00:52:02] No, I mean, I don't think that exist both for the clients and for us as attorneys, we have to be healthy ourself to help other people in the next generation and especially our client. So talking about your own trauma, talking about how you deal with it, we have to have humor to get through it. We have to have each other to get through it. That means you have to talk about the real and the dirty. And so I thank you guys for doing this podcast and thank you for having me on. 

Alison DeBelder [00:52:36] I really appreciate you being willing to come on here and talk to us about this stuff that is not the happiest part of your work or necessarily your life, and it means a lot to us. I asked Matt if he would just share a few lines about you or your work, and this is what he wrote. Words simply don't do justice to an advocate like Diana Johnson. Her passion when it comes to fighting for her clients, her dedication to encourage fundamental fairness and her incredible legal acumen make Miss Johnson a force of nature in the courtroom. Her efforts have helped countless clients, and she has inspired so many other young lawyers to fight for the rights of the accused. Moreover, I know a few other defense attorneys who would roll up their sleeves and endeavor to teach future members of law enforcement what actions are and are not allowed. But what really sets Miss Johnson apart from countless other stellar advocates are her unique skills in the appellate context. Suffice it to say, the Fourth Judicial Circuit and its citizens are unbelievably fortunate to have such a loyal, skilled and incredible attorney serving as the director of juvenile defense takes. Trauma injustice is created by Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. Please like review and read us. It means a lot. You can find us on Facebook at trauma injustice on Twitter, at Injustice Trauma or on Instagram Trauma Injustice Podcast.