Mandy Kuhn

Chris and Alison talk to criminal defense attorney Mandy Kuhn.  Mandy has been practicing since 2005 and has represented people charged with almost every type of crime.  She has exclusively worked as a public defender for her entire career, both in Florida and in Ohio. 

These conversations are not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse, and incarceration.

Transcript

Kuhn_Transcript.mp3

Chris Moser [00:00:03] This is trauma and justice, this is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma in the justice system. We also talk about the ways that law school and training have aided or failed the people we interview and ought to be improved. These conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:36] I'm Alison DeBelder 

Chris Moser [00:00:38] and I'm Chris Moser. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:39] Our guest today is Mandy Kuhn Mandy from Cincinnati and she lived in Jacksonville for 15 years practicing law before returning to Ohio. She's been a public defender for her entire professional career. She started practicing law in 2005. She's married with two sons. Welcome, Mandy. Thank you for being here. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:01:02] Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:01:04] So I want to just jump in and talk about training that you maybe received before becoming an attorney about how to deal with potentially upsetting facts or conversations that you would have to have. But I don't think I know why you became a criminal defense lawyer. So maybe let's start with that, OK? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:01:26] Well, I mean, it's a number of reasons. But my my dad was an attorney. He was a public defender and a prosecutor and a judge for different periods of time. And he was went into general practice. But he did a lot of criminal defense. And I would sometimes watch his trials. And I remember waiting late at night for juries at the courthouse and things like that with him. And I just found it all very exciting so that I always kind of had in my back of my mind that I wanted to be a lawyer, but I also wanted to be a social worker. And I majored in sociology. And I had intended to maybe get my master's in social work. But kind of as an impulsive decision, I took the LSAT and applied to law school and decided to do that instead. So that's just kind of how that went. I knew I wanted to be a public defender or work for legal aid and I applied for a lot of jobs. And then I was on my way to accept a job with a sole practitioner family lawyer. And Bill White called and offered me the job and I went and rejected that job and took the public defender. And I'm really glad about that timing. 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:21] Did you ever think about prosecution? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:02:23] No. God, no. I just I'm not saying it's an unnecessary it's unnecessary, obviously, but I just not something I could imagine myself ever doing or wanting to do. 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:32] What did your dad think about your path? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:02:35] I remember him warning me not to be a lawyer, that he felt it's a job that I don't know if it was because of student loans or what, but it's a job you can somewhat be trapped in, I guess, once you get into it. I had expressed interest in journalism when I was younger, and I think he kind of encouraged me to maybe consider that. But I think once I think he's happy now that I'm a lawyer and we have I really like talking to him about the law. So I think it's a good thing now. 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:59] I mean, I think it's pretty clear that the common thread between all of those careers that you were considering was becoming very, very wealthy. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:03:06] Right. 

Alison DeBelder [00:03:08] So, yeah, this seems right. This feels 

Mandy Kuhn [00:03:11] good. Yeah, I'm there. 

Alison DeBelder [00:03:13] So before becoming before actually starting work as a PD, did you have any training in dealing with trauma that you might experience firsthand or the trauma of other people? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:03:23] I wouldn't say any formal training. I wouldn't even know where one would get that, I guess. And I mean, I guess I was lucky, especially compared to a lot of my clients as far as I didn't have a particularly trauma filled childhood or anything like that. I would say about the most traumatic thing that happened to me as a child that I would talk about is that I had appendicitis when I was going into the seventh grade and the they sent me home from the hospital saying it was like menstrual cramps or something like that. And then my appendix burst and it was a whole thing. And I had to go back to the hospital, an ambulance and stay there for two weeks. And that was probably the most traumatic thing I can remember. The first really traumatic thing I can remember from growing up. 

Alison DeBelder [00:04:02] Well, I mean, I feel like that's pretty traumatic that that'll kill you. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:04:05] Yeah. And it's, you know, and I think now people talk about doctors not believing, I don't know, but specifically women, but doctors not believing people. And I do know 

Alison DeBelder [00:04:14] it is specifically women. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:04:16] Yeah, I was in sixth grade going into seventh grade and the first thing they did was give me a pregnancy test. And then they just told me it was menstrual cramps and sent me on my way and then look so ridiculous now that they want to think that sharp pain was appendicitis, that they would think I was just overblowing cramps. 

Alison DeBelder [00:04:31] But yeah, when I had appendicitis, I was older. So truly not trustworthy as an adult woman. But yeah, they just told me it was an STD when I was in the hospital and I had every symptom of appendicitis and my boyfriend at the time was there and they just kept telling me, like, he has to step out of the room, he's lying to you. He must have been unfaithful. I mean, it was it was ridiculous, the lengths to which they were willing to go to to make me out to be. Some kind of I don't know, 

Mandy Kuhn [00:05:02] like Hilfiker or yeah, like, 

Alison DeBelder [00:05:04] yeah, so other than that, like any on the job training, anything anybody told you about how to manage the work? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:05:11] I mean, not that I can recall. You know, I think that when we started, I started at the public defender's office. It's not that there wasn't a lot of training and we had mentors, but I don't ever specifically remember a discussion about, you know, you're going to experience trauma or your client experience a lot of trauma. I think it's just something you fall into when you start to meet and talk to these clients and learn about their lives. Right. 

Chris Moser [00:05:33] And nothing in law school either, right? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:05:35] No, not that I can remember. I did I did an internship at the general counsel's office, which was a lot of like civil law. But no, I can't recall anything in law school to do with that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:05:45] I want to talk about direct trauma. Have you ever been physically threatened by a client or a witness? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:05:52] Yes, I it's really just a handful of times, and considering the stuff that people are charged with that we represent, I don't know if that's surprising or not. But I recall one time at the jail and it was shortly after I'd come back from maternity leave, I had a client who was it was in Jacksonville. And that jail, a client who was he was mentally ill. I think he was incompetent at the time. But he was also facing mandatory life in prison as a prisoner release every offender. And he we are in one of those little rooms on the hallway, the jail where you see clients and you're pretty isolated there. And at one point he started to kind of come on to me sexually. He exposed himself. He came at me. I kept backing up. I was hitting that button, which I learned later. I think all that happens is a light comes on above the room. 

Alison DeBelder [00:06:38] Is that true? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:06:40] I mean, yeah, there was a woman another time, a woman, a mentally ill woman was in the room by herself and she kept hitting it. And I noticed I was talking to the officer in the pod trying to see a client. And I noticed it going off. But there was no other indication other than I was looking at it and I saw it flashing. So I feel like that's pretty much what they got when I'm hitting the panic button. But this guy's coming at me with his penis out like he was a big guy. It was it was pretty scary at the time. 

Alison DeBelder [00:07:07] What was this charge? Do you remember armed robbery? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:07:09] And if I recall correctly, he had already been convicted, and that's when we started to question his competence. So he was really, definitely facing mandatory life in prison. So I don't think he had much to lose. But finally, I was able to get out the hallway and just start banging on that sliding door that the officer controls. And then he came out and the officer was trying to get me to tell him what happened. But I felt very torn as far as not wanting to be in a police report, not wanting to implicate my client in something. And I just left and it was upsetting, but I didn't really know what else to do at that point. 

Alison DeBelder [00:07:43] And then did you have other interactions with that client, 

Mandy Kuhn [00:07:47] he ended up I feel like he was found incompetent, went to the state hospital and I think just another attorney at the office took over the case after that. But there wasn't a whole lot left to happen. 

Alison DeBelder [00:07:59] So what do you do when you leave the jail? Did you go and talk to a supervisor or do you remember? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:08:07] It was late in the day. I recall, and I seem to recall was on Halloween for some reason. But I mean, I called my husband, I called my direct supervisor at that time and just kind of told him what happened. I was like kind of shaking and really upset, but that was kind of all there was to it. 

Chris Moser [00:08:21] Did you request to have a different lawyer on the case or was that just presented to you? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:08:28] I requested it. I don't think anybody ever would have said no to that at that point. But yeah, I did. I did requested at that time. And I don't think there was a whole lot of further need for interaction immediately after that. So it wasn't it didn't turn out to be a huge deal as far as that goes. 

Alison DeBelder [00:08:43] Did it bother you after that? Did it affect the way that you felt next time you went to the jail? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:08:48] It probably I don't know if I was naive, but I feel like I've never had much fear of any of my clients or felt that way about them at all. So I don't think it affected how I treated any other client or anything like that. I was probably a little more cognizant of my surroundings than I had been before as far as like where I sit in the room and things like that. And probably to this day I am a little more as far as like I'll sit closer to the door or things like that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:09:10] Yeah, we had a conversation with somebody else who we all worked with in the past who's a little bit older than us. And she pointed out, which I think is worthwhile for people listening who might not do this work. She said the vast majority of the people that we represent, even in jail, would hold the door open for you and were really nice to work with. And we have good relationships. And so even though we talk about these things that are scary or upsetting, there are so many more people who are just normal people in a bad spot when we're working with them, who are pleasant to work with. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:09:49] One hundred percent. And I think I find that what the charges generally has nothing to do with how kind or polite or easy to work with the client is. There's people on driver's license charges that could be extremely difficult to work with, whereas first degree murder could be fabulous to work with. And just a pleasure. And I recall, you know, I would try to save this for clients I truly believe this about. But at sentencing hearing, sometimes I would tell the court I'm like, this gentleman was just a pleasure to work with. You could not be kinder. And I remember a prosecutor on the record scoffing at that and saying that I would say that about every client and that that should not be given any weight. And I was kind of like, no, I would just say nothing if I didn't feel that way. I just wouldn't give a personal opinion about them. But but it is true. A lot of the clients are polite and kind and thankful that you're there to help them or try to help them. 

Alison DeBelder [00:10:36] Well, and I think it's also significant that you say that this person was maybe incompetent, it was certainly mentally ill, because I think those are the only situations where I've felt maybe at all imperiled. Mm hmm. Because you deal with people who are psychotic, especially in state criminal justice system, there's a lot of people with mental illness who just wind up in jail and not well controlled and they decompensate in jail. And I feel like that's the only times that I've felt unsafe is with people who are psychotic. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:11:10] Yeah. Now, I totally agree with that. And I think, like this particular gentleman, he he was OK in the beginning. And I think the longer he was in jail, it just got worse and worse and kind of came to a head at that point. But, you know, I've certainly had and I think most female public defenders have had an experience of having someone expose themselves or something like that. And I've had that happen other times where I did not feel physically frightened or anything like that. I think more it was kind of a power move by the client or something like that to try to kind of reassert his control in the situation or a very young, immature client maybe facing some serious charges. 

Alison DeBelder [00:11:44] What have you done when that happens, when somebody is exposed themselves? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:11:48] I try not to react because I figure what they want is some sort of big reaction or something like that, I can't imagine they ever think they're going to get a positive reaction. Maybe they do. So I generally try to be like, you know, are you done? Can we move on, you know, things like that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:12:03] So you wouldn't even walk out of the room? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:12:05] I may I might walk out of the room, but I try to be very calm. I mean, I had at one time happened in the courtroom. I don't know if you remember the old courthouse where we'd talk along the edge of the courtroom and those chairs. And I had somebody tried to do it in the courtroom with the judge on the bench, which was kind of crazy. But I walked away from that. I certainly didn't want to be part of that situation. 

Alison DeBelder [00:12:24] And what did you did you go to the bailiff or did you just walk away? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:12:27] No, I don't think I've ever told no, because it's like no one. I don't I don't want to add to my client's charges. And I don't know if that's the wrong thing to do, but I don't want and I don't want to be part of a police report or anything like that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:12:40] It seems like it is this peculiar burden of practicing criminal defense as a woman today that wasn't borne by other people at any other time. And it doesn't seem to be borne by men currently. And it's this really bizarre dynamic, right, where nobody wants to get their client in trouble. Right. That's your whole reason for existing and being there. And the relationship is that you're this person's champion. And if you're any good at your job, you really believe that. And so no part of you wants to imperil them. And yet under any other circumstances, you wouldn't treat that behavior the way that lawyers have to treat that behavior. It seems like, you know, like just getting up and walking away and trying to mend fences and get them to stop, please, so that you can work together. It's just it's bizarre. And I'm not sure what I even think the answer is for how that should be handled, what the protocol should be. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:13:41] Yeah. Now, I totally agree with that. And I guess part of it is maybe just how I see myself as a public defender. I don't want to be someone that other people are like, oh, I don't want to appear weak or like I can't handle it or something like that. So I think that is part of it. I did witness another female attorney come out of the back. I don't know if this was specific to repeat offender court, but I remember there being kind of a little hallway. And you talk to your client, your inmate clients, they are before court and the old courthouse in Jacksonville and the door where all the other inmates were waiting was clear. So I know that inmates were exposing themselves to her while she was trying to talk to a client. And she came out immediately and told the bailiff and some of the prosecutors heard and I got the impression everyone was being kind of jovial about it, like they were offering to, like, press charges against this guy if she wanted to. But they were also kind of laughing about it. And I certainly didn't want that response either. 

Alison DeBelder [00:14:32] Right. I think I think I think that's correct. I don't know what the solution is. I don't, because I I also think that among our friends, I feel like when that would happen, we would all joke about it. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:14:46] I still do. I mean, absolutely right. 

Alison DeBelder [00:14:48] But I don't think that that's what would happen in a classroom if one of Chris's students came to her college students and said, hey, another college student just started masturbating in front of me in the hallway. I don't think the response would be a big round of giggles. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:15:05] No, no. 

Alison DeBelder [00:15:06] And I don't think the administration would endorse that. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:15:09] No. And if a man came up to me on the street and did something like that, I would absolutely call the cops or be extremely argumentative back or do stand up for myself a lot. I want to just walk away calmly or anything like that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:15:22] And it's hard to know how to react. Right. I think that we have to weigh a lot more factors than men do when they go to work. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:15:30] Right. Especially when it's, for example, maybe the court referring to you that way, you know, saying like, bye, girls, when you're walking out with other public defenders, for example, which happened pretty recently to me. And it's not, you know, in the grand scheme of things, that's at the end of the world. And do I want to sour my relationship with a particular court by making a big deal or embarrassing that person or anything like that? I don't. So obviously I let it go. But it's just one more thing. 

Alison DeBelder [00:16:03] If you had clients who've expressed suicidal thoughts, 

Mandy Kuhn [00:16:07] I have and sometimes I don't know, I don't want to say it's not for me to judge how serious they are, but I certainly have with mentally ill clients or just clients that I think I know what to say or being overdramatic. But when they're saying, you know, I can't possibly get 15 years in prison, I'd rather kill myself. And I guess you don't know what to do about that, because generally, if I really think somebody is going to do something, I feel like I need to say something. But then you have this loyalty to your client as well. So it's a very difficult situation. I recall very early on in my career in misdemeanor court, you know, helping another attorney who was even less experienced than I was with a client who he was out of custody, but he was expressing suicidal intentions. It was an older man. And I remember tracking him down in his trailer park and talking to him. And he ultimately, I guess you'd call it suicide by cop. He ultimately we ended up calling his son, who did, I think, alert the authorities, and he passed away. He was shot by police outside of his trailer not long after that. And we didn't know I didn't really know what to do as far as if we did the right thing or the wrong thing with all of that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:17:12] But nobody has a magic wand. But for a suicide hotline, volunteers, they have training that they give them. There's something that they say to those people. It seems like maybe public defenders and lawyers in general, because I'm sure family lawyers must hear this from people who are going through having their family torn apart from the stress of that must be unimaginable. So it does seem like you could slide that into law school somewhere, whatever the ten hours of training that suicide hotline people get. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:17:44] Well, I can say one thing about my new office up here, and I wish every public defender's office could do this, but we have two on staff, social workers, and it has been life changing as far as the help that we can give clients, and I think especially mentally ill clients that need those extra services. And they can continue to help them even after they no longer have an open case with them. And another thing we don't get training for is just kind of like the things mental health when it's not a competency issue and they just need help in their lives and housing and things like that. And I love that this social worker can do those things that we didn't have time or knowledge to do. I feel like I wish every office I hope someday every public defender's office will have an on staff social worker, because I think it's just that night and day what we can do for the clients with these people on staff. 

Alison DeBelder [00:18:31] Yeah, I mean, I feel like that was sort of the vision of the Great Society of the War Against Poverty, was the idea of all of these services being knitted together that never was fully realized. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:18:46] Right, because I think poverty is what it all comes down to. You know, like all these other issues, I feel I come from poverty in one way or another. 

Chris Moser [00:18:55] I just had a logistical question because I think it's a great idea to have social workers at public defenders offices, and I was curious if you also had mitigation specialists that did separate work in helping with sentencing and aiding in your defense, because I'm assuming that the social work person is trying to find wraparound care and help them assist them in their triage life. But I was wondering if they also if there was an overlap. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:19:27] We don't specifically have somebody with that title. We do have some wonderful investigators which are really necessary up here where there's not really depositions in criminal cases. So you have to have wonderful investigators, which we do. So they do a lot of that. But yes, the social workers do definitely help in sentencing right out the case plan for the client. As far as you know, if they get out on probation, these are all the things that we can help them with, write letters on their behalf, and then, frankly, just track them down, help us find the clients that we've lost track of and things like that. So I do feel like they do help with sentencing a lot. It's it's a huge thing. And I think that they have single handedly convinced judges who might have been leaning towards jail time or prison time to go that other way and give that person a chance on the outside. And I think that I just I cannot say enough how much I think social workers can help the public defender's office. 

Chris Moser [00:20:20] And they're probably perceived kind of like the white hat people coming in. Right, because they're the social workers and they're they have more maybe perceived objectivity to help society and your client. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:20:34] Right. They're not really learning about the facts of the case or not that they don't care. But that's just not that doesn't affect their job. They care about the person and how they're going to succeed. And I think it's funny a lot of times with these like fund the police movements, I hear people mocking like, well, fine, let's just send a social worker, see how they and I'm like, that sounds like a great idea because the social workers I know go to all the same places the police officers go, but they go without a gun and without a badge and track down people and help these people in these scary situations. So when people say that sarcastically, I'm like one hundred percent. Yes. And a social worker sent a mental health professional to this person having a crisis rather than an armed police officer, you know. 

Chris Moser [00:21:14] Exactly. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:21:15] Yeah, yeah. Not to say there are times police officers are needed. Of course they are. But if a social worker, a mental health professional, can be the first responder, sometimes I think it would save a lot of lives. 

Chris Moser [00:21:24] Yeah. And also just in the courtroom probably adds some humanity to your client because they are talking about those collateral human problems. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:21:34] Definitely. 

Chris Moser [00:21:35] So, yeah, I think it's a great service that you're able to provide your clients by having social workers in your office. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:21:42] It is. And it's like we were saying before, it's nice to know that the client's just not going to fall off the face of the earth. When you close the case and we still get updates on clients, you know, they still give all the attorneys updates and things like that. So, yeah, it's it's wonderful. 

Alison DeBelder [00:21:55] I was a public defender and then I left to work in Legal Aid and I remember thinking, gosh, I wish we had had training as public defenders for housing resources. I wish I had more I knew to offer people. I didn't have the time to offer them anything else. But I remember thinking, oh, I have this big deficit. And then when I got to Legal Aid and I started learning about housing, I realized it wasn't that I wasn't trained. There's actually no housing. There's actually just not a lot of support for people who are poor. But yeah, I think that would be amazing to have somebody in office, a social worker, but also so that you don't have to just be dismissive about the other parts of a clients or clients families life because you don't have a resource. Right? I mean, like the act of saying, I want to help you here, talk to Bob, I feel like might help shore up your relationship with people as opposed to saying you don't know anything about housing or legal aid or. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:22:52] Right, exactly. And not the legal aid isn't wonderful. I hope they can, but they only have so much to do. And it's like, you know, sometimes you'll resolve a case and somebody will get probation or with a bunch of conditions and you're like, there's no way this is going to happen. This guy's sleeping on the street. You know, there's no way he's going to do probation. It's a lot nicer that I can also help with their needs as best we can. So maybe give them a fair chance to complete that probation successfully because they're not worried about where they're going to sleep or what they're going to eat next. 

Alison DeBelder [00:23:21] Yeah, it's at least something it would be nice if all of the schools with social work programs could pair with public defenders offices. So even if they don't have the budget to put people on staff, that maybe they could have social workers in training. In turn, it seems like it could be done. It doesn't seem impossible. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:23:40] I think that would be fabulous. Yes, definitely. 

Alison DeBelder [00:23:42] Are there any particular pieces of evidence like crime scene photos or 911 tapes or even just facts that you learned from clients that were troubling that stay with you over the years? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:23:56] Yeah, there was definitely fact's there was a high profile case kind of recently that I had been on at one point or I had represent that client, I guess, on a different case. And some of the facts he told me, still stick with me. One hundred percent. But what I can think of specifically without obviously giving away anything, identifying about any clients, it's like we see so many bad photos or troubling photos or autopsy photos or reports. But I find that they'll just be one thing that sticks with me, like, for example, the defensive wounds on the hand of a child victim like that who passed away. Like I still think of that one photo of these hands being held up with defensive wounds on them. And one of a man that had been a cab driver who had been murdered and was all night in the cab with his windshield wipers still go. And when they found him the next morning and just like the loneliness of that photo still sticks with me, I think about it all the time. It was I don't know I don't know how many years ago it was, but that so that kind of thing. And I don't know if it's, you know, if I have maybe more imagination. I read I read a lot of books and things like that. I don't know if that's the reason. Maybe it's that way for everybody. But I just that those two particular photos, I feel like stick with me more than almost anything else in my entire career. 

Alison DeBelder [00:25:12] I immediately thought of two similar things, so one was with the child's wounds, I had a case that I think about all the time, and it's just because of the kids jammies. He had little kids jammies on with the little, you know, football helmets. And it is. I think you're right, maybe it's something about the imagination, because that's not the goriest crime scene photo I've ever seen. It's a Jammey photo. No, I've seen right. It's what that's all loaded with your lonely windshield wipers image. I have one where the I was going to say victim, but actually, I think it was a survivor. I think I think that this person survived. She suffered a brutal attack. She was raped. She was beaten badly and was left in a remote area tied up. And the people, the attackers left in the car. But it was a place where it was pitch black and then they came back. She thought that this was over and was worried about, like, how am I going to get out of here? I'm going to survive and so forth. And I just have this image of headlights returning. And that headlights returning image. Is as bad as anything. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:26:39] Yeah, that's terrifying, and I wonder if she thought that that was somebody coming to rescue her or she immediately knew it was the attackers coming back like that would I don't know. That would definitely stick in my head. I feel like 

Alison DeBelder [00:26:49] and I don't remember the other facts of the case at all. It's just really kind of like that movie image. 

Chris Moser [00:26:56] They're very cinematic. Mm hmm. When you guys were describing those, I could see like a true detective show or a horror movie. And those images are just very cinematic and loaded with all those and information and messages within them. 

Alison DeBelder [00:27:13] They're powerful. Well, but I was thinking about this, like how these, I don't know, awful facts or pictures stay with us and they're not great. But at the same time, I'm not afraid to look at these things, you know what I mean? Like, if I was in the office and somebody had a new case would be like, hey, let me check it out. I never was like, hide your pictures. I was always like, let's take a look. And I don't understand that curiosity and repulsion. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:27:43] I don't know if it's the same reason I'm into, like, true crime podcasts and things like that and documentaries and frankly, like horror movies as well. But yeah, I don't I don't know. I am, too. And I can think of some really gross photos like gory autopsy hammer, murder photos, horrible, horrible things. 

Alison DeBelder [00:28:00] Right. Right, right. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:28:02] And I'm not sure if those photos affect if I just seen them in a vacuum, if they would have affected me. I'm sure it's knowing the entire trying those cases and knowing everything around them that probably makes those particular photos stand out. But, yeah, I can't I'm still the same way I look at pretty much anything sometimes Thor like squinted eyes and things like that. But I don't shy away from that stuff, even though I know it may affect me. I think like tortures the worst. That's a kind of horror movie I never want to watch, but that kind of thing sticks with me. One hundred percent and I think about all the time. 

Alison DeBelder [00:28:34] Now, you mentioned kids, the child with the defensive wounds. I remember being a young lawyer and people saying they didn't want to do child sex cases or they didn't want to do cases with kids as victims after they had had kids. And I kind of scoffed. I kind of thought, how could that change anything? And I think that I have changed somewhat since I became a mom. Which I never thought would have been the case, like, I don't like watching movies where bad things happen to kids, like I have a different visceral reaction. And I don't know. I think some of it is good because I think when I interact with people, I can see it through like a mom's eyes. It is different, like the client and their experiences and also victims. So I'm not saying I couldn't do it, but I think it would affect me differently. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:29:25] I think I scoffed at it too, because I would be like, what, you think I like child murders? Like just because I don't have kids, you know? Like why. Right. Why is it different for me? I don't think I would ever refuse to take a case for that purpose if it was assigned to me. But it is true. Yes, I think I do react to them differently now having two children than I did. Which surprises me because I thought, you know, I thought they were pretty horrific then, too, before I had kids. And that particular photo I was talking about was after I had children that I took that case. One benefit I think of having children, though, is in that case, in some other cases, I've had to cross-examine children, whether it's a surviving sibling or something like that. And I think that has really helped me as far as I was very uncomfortable talking to children before I had children. And now I it's no big deal at all. And I feel like, you know, if I'm a second chair or something, I'm always gonna be the one to cross-examine the child, if that's necessary, or direct examination of the child. 

Alison DeBelder [00:30:20] I think that's a really good point. I absolutely agree with that. I mean, I guess you don't need to be a parent, but if somebody who was like an older sibling and grew up with talking to kids, which was not my experience, because even picking juries and thinking about your jury when their child witnesses in a case. I'd do that differently, 100 percent. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:30:42] Right, and it's like and I think there's it's not just children, I think there's some people that don't want to take I think a lot of people that don't want to take an animal abuse case, for example, which is kind of I don't think it's funny, but it is kind of funny that they'll take a nasty murder. But you heard a dog like I have nothing to do with it, 

Alison DeBelder [00:30:57] and I feel like that was more common. I have heard from my colleagues way more people who wouldn't have anything to do with an animal torture case, but like you say, are just fine with the human torture cases. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:31:10] And I don't know if it's because they don't want to see those specific photos or they're so disgusted by it, they don't know if they can do the best job they could do. But I my position on it is we have clients that are accused of a wide range of horrible things, you know, like and if we pick and choose, am I saying because I don't want the one where he the sex case with the child, I'm OK that he murdered that old lady or allegedly. But you know what I mean? Like, we always have these horrible there's horrible facts up and down, and I don't feel like I can pick and choose what I'm going to be. 

Alison DeBelder [00:31:42] It's an adversarial system, right? You're getting a defense or you're not. That counts for everybody, right? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:31:49] Yeah, I don't I just don't look at it that way. It's like everybody needs an attorney. Somebody needs to do it and needs to do their best. And I try to do that regardless of the facts. 

Alison DeBelder [00:31:58] Yeah. And I don't think I ever really posed a problem for me. I don't know what that says about me. But when we're talking about this stuff affecting you, what does that look like? How does it show up in your life? Do you know? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:32:11] It does in some ways, please don't rob me, but I've never been one of those hyper vigilant people, like I've been a runner for a long periods of my life. And while I do run with pepper spray most of the time, especially if it's at night, I feel like I do more of that because of like dogs, like unsocialized dogs have come after me before while running. I don't necessarily think about people. And I still run with my earbuds, which I know is probably the opposite of what you should do if you're trying to be vigilant from attacks or anything like that. But I think it's affected me and Alison. I think this is something you actually told me one time and I've heard this elsewhere about don't be afraid to be impolite. I do think that has been a problem with me where you're maybe uncomfortable in a situation or somebody is approaching you and you'd rather be in danger than in polite, you know what I mean? And yeah, I think that's something I remember. And I do I think I've gotten better about that from this job. As far as don't kowtow to people asking you for something. If you feel uncomfortable, get away and don't worry about feelings. And I think that is something. But on the other hand, I feel like people, you know, scary teenagers in a parking lot or something that I might I'm less afraid of that kind of people. I'm more like these seem like my clients and I'm less nervous around people that I might have been nervous around before or maybe homeless people asking for things or things like that. I'm much more likely to talk to that person than I might have been before I began this job or less scared of people like that, I guess. 

Alison DeBelder [00:33:30] What about other fears or nightmares or anything like that? Have you had any of that happen? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:33:35] I don't recall specifically nightmares. I do think things like we talked about before have just stuck with me like photos and things like that. And one thing that I think as far as this made me upset or maybe just kind of cry thinking about after the fact is a lot of the mentally ill clients, especially those in jail. But when I think about what their life must be like and how scary it must be to be in that jail and the really bad ones who are waiting to go to the hospital or hearing voices and seeing things genuinely and just what their life must be like, I find extremely upsetting. And that's something that sticks with me that I've cried about at night after the fact thinking about. But that's something I would say affects me all the time. I think a big problem, I guess I think some states are worse than others, but I had clients, families saying, you know, they come in on a misdemeanor and it would be I think the code was ninety seven, if I remember correctly. But it was if they're mentally ill, they would often just dismiss the case and that would be the end of it if it was a felony. Do the whole eval and they may get competency training, which has its own set of problems either in the jail or out or go to the state hospital. And I think I remember I feel like a parent saying something like, what does she have to kill somebody before she can actually get treatment? And I'm you know, it wasn't entirely incorrect, right? She just kept getting these little misdemeanor charges and getting really straight back out. And it was just that I didn't know what else to tell them. And it felt so bad that like, yeah, she probably needs to commit a felony before she's going to get actually sent to the hospital for longer than a day or two. Yeah, I didn't have much else to tell people. I had one case not long before I left to come back here where I don't want to say the family was normal, but you know what I mean. Compared to other clients families, the mom and dad had good jobs, things like that. And they had an adult son that had started to show these symptoms and it became extremely paranoid, started just acting weird. And then it got worse and worse to the point that he seemed dangerous. And ultimately he ended up killing his father and his mother came home and found him. And it was a full on angry. It was almost textbook, 

Alison DeBelder [00:35:41] not guilty by reason of insanity. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:35:43] Yes. Yes. And I just remember the the mother just blaming herself, even though she had done everything in her power to get help for her son and just how tragic it was. It turned out about as well as it could have in those facts. But I just I could not imagine how she felt and just the tragedy of her life dealing with all of that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:36:01] And it's just so heartbreaking. It's an calculatingly horrifying that we've we all know that case, that that's not an isolated, sad event for one family. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:36:14] Right, and it's like she knew it was coming, like he was escalating and escalating and she felt powerless and exactly what she was afraid happened, happened and. Right. Just terrible. 

Alison DeBelder [00:36:25] So how do you cope with all of the stuff that we've talked about, like when you have a really upsetting case, when you do have to look at gross pictures, when you have a client that you can't get a good outcome for because of these complicating factors, how do you think you manage it? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:36:42] I mean, I think there's a couple of ways. No. One, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of family support. I have a wonderful husband and wonderful children to come home to. And my husband is never at least he doesn't express it if he is, but he is never tired of hearing me talk and just let it all out. And, you know, almost every day I have to tell him about some case or some client or something. A judge or prosecutor did you know, and often texting him throughout the day about these things. And it's I'm so lucky to have someone like a sounding board as far as that goes, who feels the same way I do, who's also a bleeding heart liberal that wants the same things I want for these clients. That and then also I don't know how so practitioners do it. I mean, I guess we all have lawyer friends, but working at a public defender's office is completely necessary for me, like just having those colleagues in that camaraderie. And you can I've worked at three different public defender's offices in one way or another, and I feel like they've all been the same and that there's people always are willing to listen to you. And sometimes it's things I wouldn't want nonlawyers to hear because I do feel like we sometimes laugh about things that are not funny, but it's the only way to get through it. You know, when you're handling these terrible facts, these sex cases or murderers or child abuse cases. And it's certainly not mocking the client and it's not mocking victims or anything like that. But sometimes you have to see the lighter side in these things or you'll just you won't be able to do it. It'll just be crushing you. So I think having colleagues of the same mindset to talk to and talk things out with and just rant to is completely necessary. I can't imagine not having that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:38:18] Yeah. And people who have the same fund of knowledge because I mean, I think people could be sympathetic to you, but there are some jokes you can only make with people. There's some gallows humor that can only be had with people who know common characteristics of certain types of crimes that take place. I feel like that's maybe a kind of talk therapy. What do you think about something formal, like formal talk therapy? Is that something that you would ever consider or endorse? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:38:53] I would endorse it for people that feel they need it. It's not something I've ever done or had a whole lot of interest in. And maybe that's to my peril. Maybe it's something I would benefit from. But no, it's not. And I remember in twenty sixteen, my mother passed away and my youngest son was diagnosed with autism within a month of each other. And it was probably about the most crushing, you know, time of my life. And someone did suggest at that point, maybe a close friend suggested maybe I should talk to somebody. And that was probably the closest I ever came to it. But I don't know if it's just the need to see myself as strong and not needing that or what, but it's just not something I've ever pulled the plug on or ever actually done or gone through with. I don't know. 

Alison DeBelder [00:39:37] But there isn't one thing that you can point to as the reason that that's not appealing. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:39:42] Other than my whole life, just thinking of myself as someone that doesn't need that and I don't I don't love talking about myself, I guess this podcast says otherwise right now. But like, I don't generally like being really introspective and talking about my issues, not something I like to do a whole lot. It seems weird to me to do in a formal setting, so I guess I can't give a real reason why I never have. But it's not something I've ever seriously considered. But I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it helps a lot of people. 

Alison DeBelder [00:40:11] Do you think there's still a stigma associated with it, because it seems to me that they're at least used to be I don't know if there still is a stigma where I didn't hear people talking about it, if they were doing it, and I'm sure they were people had to be like, you know, people's marriages fell apart around us. Right? Like they had to be going to therapy for their marriage. I never heard about it. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:40:33] I have some friends that will do tell me they go to the therapy and things like that. And it does like couples therapy or individual. And I do think it seems to help them. And I absolutely agree there's a stigma and I think that is slowly changing. I listen to a podcast called My Favorite Murder, where they always talk about our very often talk about going to see psychiatrists and things like that. And people writing into them are often saying, thank you for removing that stigma and letting me talk about the fact that I need this as well. So I do think that's a great thing. And I do want to go back to one thing I said that my son being diagnosed with autism was a crushing blow. And at the time it was. But I do want to say it no longer feels that way, learning more about it and things like that. It's really brought joy to me in some ways getting past, you know, what you think your child's life is going to be and kind of accepting it might be a great life for him, might be different than how you had initially imagined it. So I don't want it to act like that his autism has ruined our lives or anything like that because it's been a pleasure and a lot of ways and he's a pleasure. But that news at that time was very, very hard. 

Alison DeBelder [00:41:38] Do you think that there are just people who are naturally more resilient who may be cut out for this work? Maybe it is the world divided between like Alison who are hyper vigilant guess getters and Mandy who are just running in the middle of the night with earbuds in like she's in a horror movie. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:41:55] I mean, to some extent. But I mean, we all see people that that tried to be public defenders and leave after some just want the experience, want some trial experience and then want to go make some real money, which probably certainly understandable, but I don't see us. Is that different? Alison, I see you as somebody who could be a lifelong public defender. I think I think you're tough in that way. I don't know. Yes, I do. I certainly don't think it's for everybody. And I think everybody who does any type of criminal defense gets those questions like, well, how can you represent somebody you know is guilty or how can you be around these people that have done these horrible things? And so I guess, you know, if you're asking that question, then you're probably not cut out to be a public defender. But I feel like there are certainly people that should do it and should not do it. But I don't know the answer as far as the type of person that can stick with this job, 

Alison DeBelder [00:42:43] do you have any examples of people that you've seen not handling the stress of the job well? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:42:52] I do think and I don't know if this is public defender specific, but it is to some extent, I think the culture of a lot of offices I've worked at is definitely a lot of people drink and drink a lot, among other things. And I don't necessarily think that's always bad. I mean, after a trial, you've got to go have a drink and wine down and talk it out and reenact parts of it and things like that. Like, I can't imagine not. You're just so wound up like I don't know about you, but when I'm at trial, I don't even eat those days. Most days, like, I'm just so keyed up I can't even think about eating and things like that. So you really just have to wind down. It's just so much feeling and stress and those like decisions you have to make on the fly that are basically life and death decisions for your client where there's no good answer and things like that. So I do think there are people that don't deal with that well, and they may either go to a different line of work or different type of law, or they may. I mean, we do see I certainly think it's something the bar deals with as far as people having drinking or drug problems to cope, it does seem like something that happens fairly often or that we hear about when you read the news about people that have been, you know, got in trouble with the bar and things like that. So I think it's certainly something that a lot of attorneys need to be mindful of. 

Alison DeBelder [00:44:02] What is your advice for people who might be thinking about this career? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:44:09] I would say I mean, I would say do it. It's so rewarding and fulfilling and I cannot imagine doing another job. I can't imagine having another career at this point. And I don't know what my future holds. But as as I sit here now, I would like to do this for the rest of my life. But I think you should have that mindset. And I think I would say as best you can surround yourself with a mentor or somebody that can help you in that way. And I think that's why all the officers I've worked at have been great, specifically the public defender's office that I began at that I felt like we I just felt so lucky to have these amazing attorneys, like trying a case with somebody that I can my first case with somebody that I consider like a legend, that I got to try my first jury trial with that person. It just feels so, you know, I feel so lucky to have had those experiences. 

Alison DeBelder [00:44:57] Who was your first jury trial with? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:44:59] Well, my first one was with Susan Yazji, who I do consider a legend. It was a mistrial. Then my first trial to verdict was without Chipperfield, which was a not guilty on a DUI down there. And I just felt like 

Alison DeBelder [00:45:13] all the stars it 

Mandy Kuhn [00:45:14] was. And he taught me the importance of going to a scene like I remember we already picked the jury, but the day before we went out to the scene of where they did these field sobriety tests and just how much more knowledgeable you are, just even being able to show the jury that you know what you're talking about. And so I do think that I learned so much from for both of them and all of the people, all of those homicide attorneys at the public defender's office, there's so much and I think that a huge problem and a lot of offices is caseload. And I don't necessarily think there's a way around that. But I think that I find to be it's been less of a problem at this office up in Ohio. But I just remember times just your caseload seemed astronomical and it would be all extremely serious cases, many people facing mandatory life in prison and things like that. And that was just something that was very difficult, probably the most difficult part of the job. 

Alison DeBelder [00:46:04] I think that's right. I think it's truly traumatic to go to bed at night knowing there's these people facing all this time and you don't have the time to do everything that you would like to do. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:46:17] And I remember when the public defender's office, when the new public defender got elected and they did away with special defense, which was a kind of specialized unit that dealt with like the sex cases and just kind of like especially, I think, violent or complicated cases that weren't homicides. So they did away with that and gave all of those cases to the division chief. And I left a short time after that. I was lucky enough to get another job, but I just remember having these boxes in my office that I was afraid to even open. They had, like some of them have like evidence in them. And they were very, very serious cases that had been languishing. And I had three attorneys to supervise my own regular caseload and then all of these serious cases. And it just felt horrible. 

Alison DeBelder [00:47:01] And a brand new baby, right? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:47:03] A newborn baby, right? Yes. I had just come back from maternity leave with my first child, and it was just nightmarish. 

Alison DeBelder [00:47:10] Like, I mean, I can feel my stomach knotting up just having you describe that, because I know how that feels to be afraid to open the things because there's so much. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:47:23] Well, and also just the the sentencing in Florida. And I don't say that other states are better or worse necessarily, but this one part of the Florida sentencing, specifically the prison releasee offender, and I don't know if it's used as much now as it was during that time, but 

Alison DeBelder [00:47:39] can you explain what it does? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:47:40] Sure. So from my memory, it's basically if within, I think, three years of being released from prison. So you have to go to prison, which means a 13 month sentence or more. But it can be for anything, a drug sale or Grand Theft Auto. You get sentenced to prison. And within three years of your release, if you pick up any one of several enumerated crimes, that maximum becomes your minimum and explain it a little better. Let's say, for example, I have a client that does 13 months on Grand Theft Auto, which is kind of a true story and gets out. And within three years, he commits a burglary, a house burglary, which is a serious crime, doesn't go into the house armed, but steals a gun as part of that burglary, which makes it an armed burglary. He's now facing mandatory life in prison if convicted because the armed part makes it up to life in prison. And now he's mandatory life. Same with an armed robbery 

Alison DeBelder [00:48:34] and those mandatory life sentences, they change the way serving your sentence works so that its actual life. Yeah, life is life in prison, meaning that you can't serve less than leaving in a coffin. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:48:47] Exactly. 

Alison DeBelder [00:48:48] You die in a cage. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:48:50] And the judge has no choice about that. And I've certainly had judges express regret over that, but they don't have any discretion. So the only person that has discretion is the prosecutor who can change how it is charged. So they they know they can say, well, your guy is going to get mandatory life on this crime, that maybe there's DNA, maybe he's on video or fully confessed to something you would normally want to negotiate, not go to trial. But they say, OK, well, you're twenty one year old client. He could do 30 years or he could do life, you know, and that that happened to all of the time. And most of the clients to them, 30 years of life, they they can't see beyond that. And so you go to trial in these cases and you you see these young kids going away for life. I just feel like and I think repeat offender court, which they eventually did away with in Jacksonville, was the same thing where you'd have all these people charged with maybe a twenty dollar crack sale, but they had two prior felonies, making them a habitual felony offender. And just you'd be trying cases almost every week. You'd be trying mostly civil cases. And those people come in for sentencing 30 years, 30 years, 30 years, just throwing these people away like it was nothing. And I think that was over a piece of crack. And I felt like that was just a really traumatic part. And I obviously it's way worse for them and their families. But just just so upsetting how the murderers and these high profile cases get a lot of attention. But just the number of people that have had their lives thrown away over a crack sale and are doing 30 years. 

Alison DeBelder [00:50:16] You know, I think that all the time, like the repeat offender, the people going away for what may be tantamount to their life over pawning a lawnmower. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:50:26] Yes. 

Alison DeBelder [00:50:27] Walking away from work release these sales of drugs is just I think that the death penalty, for example, gets a lot of attention and justifiably and it certainly sets the parameters for what people can contemplate as an appropriate sentence for a crime. And it sets it at the extreme in our country for all the other conversations. But I think if you asked me about injustice, the true injustices are all the people whose lives are just slipping away in jails and prisons over the things that you just described. I mean, that's obviously the huge injustice, right? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:51:09] Right. And you do really have to put a shell on about those kind of cases, because I just remember, like Thursday, I think was sentencing day and you would just see one after another people going away for what was probably going to be the rest of their lives or very close to it over something just and their offer might have been 20 years or twenty five years. And everyone knew if you go to trial and lose, you're getting them acts like it was just known. 

Alison DeBelder [00:51:30] Well, and there's that futility that grinds you down when you go and do that kind of work. It doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter what mitigation you come up with, it doesn't matter how good you are in a trial, like you might win the burglary, but you're going to lose the dealing in stolen property and nothing matters. And judges must feel that way, too, when they were in those courts because of the lack of discretion. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:51:55] I think some. Yeah, I think they had differing opinions depending on the judge, you know. And I think people will say, well, who cares? They're habitual offenders. And I'm like, yeah, but when one of the felonies might have been a possession of drugs, you know, and one of them might have been a grand theft and they could be spread out over years and years. And it's just like these aren't truly the worst of the worst. You know, some of them are, 

Alison DeBelder [00:52:16] but they're victimless 

Chris Moser [00:52:17] crimes. Right. And you can't say in jury, you can't say when you're picking a jury or in your argument. I know we're here about a lawnmower, but this is going to be a life sentence. You're not allowed to discuss what the penalty will be. But I'm sure that most juries, if they realized what was at stake, perhaps there would be jury nullification or why are we wasting tax money housing someone in prison for decades? Why am I sitting here listening, taking time off of my job to be part of this corrupt system? I wish we could say that. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:52:55] I wish we could do. I ran into a juror who I'd try to sell in front of and repeat offender court. I ran into her at the dressing room at Old Navy and she recognized me and was you know, they convicted. And I you know, it was it was on a recording. I don't blame them for convicting. It was certainly a provable case for the state. The guy got 30 years and she asked me what happened. And I just I remember the look on her face when she heard that that man got 30 years in prison. And I took a little satisfaction out of that, you know what I mean? But, yeah, I also felt bad because had she known, maybe that would have been a different outcome. And I don't know the correct answer. I realized that the that shouldn't matter. But it's also just it's just so unfair. And these undercover narcotics officers that just are doing this to 30 people in one day and just cut and paste the police report and 30 years after 30 years, up to 30 years and just crazy. And then, you know, if you don't have a record, you might get lucky and get two years or something like that. But next time you're and you're not these are drug kingpins. You know, these are a guy that might facilitate a sale for an undercover just so he can get a little piece for himself. You know, it's a little piece of crack for himself, for his addiction there, very, very rarely going after the actual what I would call drug dealers. And for all this, you know, for all of these people that we're talking about that are going away for years and years. And I think of how much money is spent on like just a jury trial for one person that maybe sold a fleck of crack. And, you know, I don't know the answer. I don't necessarily think there should be just blanket legalization of everything, but I just think it needs to be treated. I know other countries have to treat it like a public health crisis rather than a criminal crisis. And I I believe that's the answer because I just think of all the money we put towards locking these people up and housing and paying for corrections officers and on and on and on. And I think that money could be much better spent. And I know this isn't anything groundbreaking. A lot of people say this, but much better spent towards treating these people because I don't think anybody wants to be a crack addict, you know what I mean? It's just when you're in this hopeless situation, you know, growing up in poverty, it's it often happens. It's often the way you go. But I just feel like it's starting that way with marijuana. And we don't see as many people going away for marijuana, luckily. But still, every other drug that might not be that much worse are still being treated criminally rather than as a health issue, which I think is how it should be. 

Alison DeBelder [00:55:09] But my point is that, yeah, you can see trajectories, but the great part is when you're wrong. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:55:16] Absolutely. And I think we're wrong a lot because I think a lot of people, we never hear from them again because they do succeed. And I feel like sometimes like when people are on probation, it can feel like every single person violates and there. But I'm like, you know what? They don't we just never hear about that. We just never see those people again, the people that are successful and stuff like that. Or so I do think you can I guess you can get a little jaded, but it's just because the people we see again are the ones that unfortunately didn't go the way we wanted them to. But there's so many people that did and we probably never really could know. I hope we don't even know all of the good that we can do for people because we just never see them again, because they never have any contact with the justice system again. 

Alison DeBelder [00:55:55] First of all, thank you for talking to us about some of the kind of bummer aspects of the work that you do. So at the end of these conversations, we like to maybe highlight why it's important to do this work. And we ask some people to just write a couple of sentences about you and the work that you do. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:56:18] Oh, I didn't know I would get to hear this. I knew you were doing this, but I didn't know you'd actually be reading them to me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:56:22] Yeah, OK. Well, I'll read the first one. Do you know a person named Joshua Goldburg? 

Mandy Kuhn [00:56:26] Yes, I do. 

Alison DeBelder [00:56:29] All right. I asked Josh to write something about you and he said it is a pleasure to send you some awesome stuff about Mandy. Mandy is an amazing person and an attorney that I would consider to be a rare gem. She is a true professional and a model of how one should conduct themselves in the legal community. I first met Mandy way back in twenty fourteen. When I started working at her office, Mandy became a mentor and someone who I could always go to for legal advice, trial strategies and really any type of question I had. She is a wealth of knowledge. Mandy was a bright spot in our office who always brought joy and built camaraderie. When Mandy left for Ohio, I am still said she left. I was the attorney who actually took over her cases. I remember to this day when the judges told me I had big shoes to fill. I believe those statements alone echo the respect Mandy had within the legal community. Mandy is a great friend and someone I still look up to this day as one of the best attorneys I have ever met. While Florida Mrs Mandy Ohio has gained a rare gem. 

Mandy Kuhn [00:57:42] That is that is very sweet. I took over. Josh was doing dependancy and switched over to criminal. So I tried his first jury trial with him and he he's a wonderful attorney. That's wonderful to hear him say about me. But I, I very much respect Josh and I think he's a great attorney. 

Chris Moser [00:57:58] I'd like to read Waffa because she interviewed me at the PD's office. Waffa says I've struggled with sending you something because there are too many good things to say about Mandy. It's hard to narrow them down to just a few sentences. She's one of the most kind hearted people I know. That's one of the things that makes her a great person, but also a great lawyer. People may think toughness is what a trial lawyer needs and it is, but so is empathy. Empathy is an excuse or approval, empathy is being able to see your client as a person to understand things that brought them to where he is today and caring about doing the best job you can, no matter the odds. She brought that to her clients and they saw it and felt it. She is also one of the most successful trial lawyers I know, something she doesn't get enough credit for. I know my conclusion about the connection between how she approached her clients and her success. But you, of course, are free to draw your own. She is smart and funny, and no matter where she is working, they are lucky to have her. I know we were 

Mandy Kuhn [00:59:14] having Waffa, you know, Waffa with my boss. She was one of the mentors of the public defender's office, and then she was my boss at another office as well. And having Waffa talk about a wealth of knowledge, I think she single handedly taught me DNA because I was you know, she is just a wonderful attorney and I miss Waffa every day. I love her. 

Alison DeBelder [00:59:32] Our final one is from Katherine Hinchey. I met Mandy almost 17 years ago when we both worked at the PD's office in Jacksonville. I had just moved to Fellaini and she was pretty new in misdemeanor. I came into her office to discuss a mutual client, but ended up staying to look through her wedding album and chat about her recent wedding. After that, our friendship was sealed and I count her as one of my closest friends through everything, weddings, kids losing a parent, difficult cases and crazy clients. I know she will be there to listen, give me advice or make me laugh. The friendship that Mandy and I share is why I love the community so much. Those that are at first your colleagues become some of the most important people in your life as an attorney, Mandy is one of the absolute best. She really loves the law. So weird. And I've watched as she has started a task which no one wants to do, such as writing a misdemeanor appeal or researching some esoteric issue. A client has raised and become completely committed and engrossed in the work. She is a passionate advocate and ally for her clients and takes no prisoners when it comes to standing up to the judges and prosecutors. I once had a client ask me if I knew of an attorney who is an absolute bulldog named Amanda Kuhn, and he wondered if I could represent him as well as she does her clients. I assured him that I would do my best, but I knew in my heart I'd surely fall far short. But what sets Mandy apart from most others is her innate compassion for her clients. She never fails to go the extra mile. If a client is coming to the state attorney's office to give a sworn statement, she brings in McDonald's or a candy bar or a Coke. She goes to thrift stores searching for the best outfit for her clients to wear to trial. She spends time picking out makeup to cover a client's tattoos for trial, making sure the cover up color matches his skin so it won't be noticeable. She truly likes the people she represents, and that is much rarer than many people would think. Her work inspires mine, and I am lucky to have her in my life. 

Mandy Kuhn [01:01:41] That Katherine is, I don't know. She's the sister to me. I just I miss so many people and things in Jacksonville. But the thing I think of is Katherine when I think of who I miss the most. And I she's probably my dearest friend, but I think that's hilarious that she brings up like the makeup and stuff like that. I think I know a lot of attorneys that have done that. But I took a photo of my client. He had a big gun tattoo on his throat and it was an ID case. So it wasn't something where, you know, that was I just didn't want the jury to see it. And I remember going to like I was in like Revlon and Walgreens showing the woman, like, to help me pick out the skin, the skin color to cover this up with like. So I got like, you know, the way I'm comb, like, dream wear foundation or whatever it was like, got it on my client. But he got a not guilty, so maybe it helped. 

Chris Moser [01:02:28] Trauma injustice is created by Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. Please like review and read us. It means a lot.