Deb Billard

Chris and Alison talk to homicide defense attorney Deb Billard.  We discuss cases, child clients, restorative justice, and religion.  Deb shares how she remains relentlessly positive, her loving relationship with clients, and the role of yoga and meditation in maintaining wellbeing in such a difficult job. 

These conversations are not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse, and incarceration.

Transcript

Billard_Transcript.mp3

Chris Moser [00:00:03] This is trauma and justice, this is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma and the justice system. We also talk about the ways that law school and training have aided or failed the people we interview and ought to be improved. These conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic history should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:35] I'm Alison DeBelder. 

Chris Moser [00:00:37] And I'm Chris Moser. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:38] Our guest today is Deborah Billard. She's an assistant public defender in Jacksonville, Florida, in the state public defender's office where she handles homicide cases. She's been practicing law for 30 years. She is the world's biggest Seminole fan. Welcome, Deb. Thank you for being here. 

Deb Billard [00:00:57] Thank you for having me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:58] Deb, anything else you want to talk about as far as your resume goes, as far as your bio goes? Have you been working as a public defender for your entire legal career? 

Deb Billard [00:01:09] Yes, it was funny, really. There's a little story to this. I went to law school because I wanted to be rich and I was out of school for 10 years before I went back to law school. I was working and what for doctor for a few years worked for family business. And then I went to law school and then I got in there and started taking criminal procedure and constitutional law and learned about the Scottsboro Boys and all these. That was really kind of what did it just the fact that these innocent kids would be accused and not have anybody to stand up for them. And so it's like, well, there's nothing else that will do, but I have to be a public defender. And so the idea of getting rich because of law school kind of fell by the wayside. But I have never, ever regretted it for a moment. 

Chris Moser [00:01:53] Were either of your parents attorneys? 

Deb Billard [00:01:55] No, my dad owned his own business and my mom worked with him and did the bookkeeping and payroll and that kind of stuff. But we have no no lawyers in my whole family. 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:05] So what year was it that you started practicing? 

Deb Billard [00:02:08] May of ninety one. I just had my 30th anniversary. 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:11] Congratulations. 

Deb Billard [00:02:13] It's crazy. It's like it really. I remember what I was wearing the very first day. I remember I went to J one with Kurt Davidson and was just appalled at, you know, I always thought Jacksonville was this kind of sweet, innocent little southern town. And it's like, oh, my God, there's a dark underbelly, you know? 

Alison DeBelder [00:02:30] And it is first appearance court 

Deb Billard [00:02:33] and first appearance court is wild. I am a huge Seminole. I went to undergrad at Florida State, but I went to law school in Gainesville. I decided to apply. The only places I applied were UFF and FSU because I was married. I had a house and a husband and a dog. And it was like even if Harvard called, I couldn't go. So I got accepted to Florida State and then I thought, well, if I get accepted to UFF, it's closer to Jacksonville, it would be more convenient then. I have a degree from both Florida State in Florida, so that's where I ended up going. But it was amazing. I really I, I remained a seminal. 

Alison DeBelder [00:03:08] Yeah. We've noticed it's hard to miss. So you went straight to the public defender's office. Did you have anything in your background that prepared you for the kind of difficult things that you would see and hear about in this work 

Deb Billard [00:03:24] that really you know, I had just a lovely, charmed, happy childhood. My parents were amazing, you know, and I think of that often. And I think about the difference between my client's childhood and my childhood. I was very happy for a lot of love and support. And you can do it whatever you want to do. We're going to be behind you. One hundred percent. And they sent me to private schools. I started out in Catholic school, really good education and just a lot of love and support from my parents. And I look around at my clients like, oh, my God. And I had a really interesting experience. It was early on in my public defender career. I was doing Bacharach's. 

Alison DeBelder [00:04:06] Can you explain what Baker acts are just for people listening who might not know. 

Deb Billard [00:04:09] Yeah, Baker X is it's not a criminal procedure, it's a civil procedure. But it's someone that is mentally ill because of their illness. They might be dangerous to themselves or others. It wouldn't rise to the level of like, you know, if they stabbed somebody or really hurt somebody, they would probably get a criminal charge, but that they were more people that just like I had a guy that was living under the bridge and people that just really were out of it and couldn't take care of themselves and they would be civilly committed and sent to the state hospital. So a lot of our clients would be in a ACSU, a crisis stabilization unit. And the worst one in town was mental health center on 20th Street, because they're all mentally ill people. And then this is in the poor section of town with not good resources and know sort of all the systems around town. 20TH Street was the worst. I would go out there with my assistant and we would actually this was back in the days of paper and we would look at the people's file, we would take notes about our client and what their history was and all that kind of stuff. So we're at a 20th Street, which is, you know, a terrible psych unit in the worst section of town. And then I'm driving back and I went through Blodgett homes. I don't even know if it's still there, but it was like public housing and it was just so awful. It was so there was no trees. There were no rose bushes there. It was graffiti and broken glass and just gross. And then I'm going home and I'm going to go to the gym. And so I'm driving down Hollywood Boulevard and there's a golf course and palm trees and oceanfront mansions. And the contrast was so striking. And I just thought if I lived in the Blodgett homes, I'd be smoking crack, too. I mean, it was just the despair and the ugliness in my clients all lived over there. I mean, that was you know, that was where our people come from. And I just felt like, you know, it's just the accident of birth that some people get born into the Blodgett homes and some people get bored on Ephedra Boulevard. 

Alison DeBelder [00:06:16] I remember before I had even ever done a yoga class at the Y, and for a while I got into doing it really regularly and it was, of course, great for my health and mental health. And I've gotten away from it now. But I remember you and I shared a room on some conference trip, but I remember you doing yoga. And I was like, what is this? When did you first find it? How did you find yoga? 

Deb Billard [00:06:39] Oh, gosh, I was attracted to it since I was a kid. I bought a book. I think it was 14 years old. It was a book called Yoga for Americans by Andrew Deb, and I still have it. And then they had this thing about transcendental meditation. And I remember I think it was 14 years old and I get my mother to take me over to this house on Spring Park Road. And they were going to give me my mantra. And you had to pay one hundred bucks or something like that. And I had, you know, babysitting money and I mean 14 year olds and especially back then, one hundred bucks was a lot of money. Right. And I went in there and my mom, God bless her, just took me and waited outside in the car while I waited and got my mantra. And I meditate every morning and do yoga a few times a week. It really, really has always resonated with me and has always helped me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:07:27] I've gone to a couple of conferences, not criminal law conferences, but for various jobs that I've had where in recent years they started posting as part of the schedule, an early morning yoga that you can go to before the actual conference itself, where there's a ton of sitting and maybe thinking stuff. And I'm wondering if you think there might be a benefit to public defenders offices offering some guidance or classes in meditation, mindfulness, yoga as a perk for the attorneys that it might lead to better results for clients? 

Deb Billard [00:08:10] I absolutely do. And in fact, I was thinking, because I'm going to retire pretty soon, I'm a drop in ba ba ba. But I was thinking I could teach yoga in the jail. That would be something I could do after I leave the office because I've noticed at conferences recently they're offering yoga and attorneys are so freaking stressed out and so much on their plate and like you said, taking on the weight of the world and taking on all the injuries that have befallen their clients, I think it's super important for your mental health to have something like that. And then there was this meditation that I do. They actually went into a maximum security prison in Alabama, and it was all these guys that are on death row and they're all charged with murder and they're all stabbing each other and fighting and all kinds of crap going on all the time. And they came in and they taught them meditation and they had to meditate like morning and night. And they it's just amazing. Everybody stopped. The violence stopped. They all chilled out. They all it really works. I majored in music therapy. That was my it was my undergraduate degree. One of the things I did was go into the juvenile detention center in Gainesville and brought in like guided meditation. And I dragged these Mattsson and made the kids lie down and we're going to go off into a little meadow and stuff. I mean, I didn't really know what I was doing, but the people at the detention center was like, I've never see these kids lie down and close their eyes. I mean, they're just you know, they are stabbing each other with pencils and fighting and throwing food and just out of control that they would lie down and listen to the music. I think that's my key, is just having spirituality and practical things that I can do that help me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:10:05] You're Christian, aren't you, Deb? 

Deb Billard [00:10:07] Yeah, I go to the Episcopal Church, I grew up Catholic, and then I had to leave the Episcopal Church is very similar to the Catholic Church, but it's not quite as ridiculous about divorce and birth control. And they have female priests and it fits my values a lot better. 

Alison DeBelder [00:10:27] And do you think that you rely on your faith, that your faith helps you with the challenges that come with this work? 

Deb Billard [00:10:35] Absolutely, although I would have been a little disappointed in my church since George Floyd when that first happened, there was this big, you know, let's have a book club and let's take some action. And then it just kind of has fallen off and they didn't. I love the priest at my church. I love my church, you know, but I expected more action and more. There was a sermon at my church waiting for George Foy to figure out exactly what the topic was about, but they said in Germany the Christians were in the church and they're taking the Jews on trains to the concentration camps and they could hear the trains going by. And so the church would just turn up the organ music louder and sing louder, you know, and pray and not do anything about the Jews that are being taken off to their death. And it was like what they should have done is go out and lay down on the railroad tracks. Right. You know, we're not we're not having this. And it's really been said to me that they've gone so far, but they won't really take a stand and get milita. I mean, I was out marching in the streets for I marched six times for George Floyd. I was like, this is. Complete bullshit, and it's still going on, you know, this is what are we doing? So I'm a little disillusioned right now, but I still have, you know, God, higher power. 

Chris Moser [00:12:11] Deb, I think we're similar in the sense that I'm pretty sensitive and I really care and enjoy my clients a lot. I remember Alison I had a trial of a second chair for her and he had pretty profound mental illness. And my job was basically to write notes to him and comfort him. And I rubbed his leg so he didn't stand up and have an explosion in the courtroom. We got a not guilty few and far between. Yes, yes. When I graduated to felony court, I was in front of a particular judge and I was in the middle of a plea colloquy. And I was I think I had my hand on his back and he was going to prison. And the judge ended up calling me into chambers and basically 

Deb Billard [00:12:55] kind of was like, don't be naive, 

Chris Moser [00:12:57] don't believe everything they say. And I was just wondering if anybody has approached you because it's just shines through how much you care about your clients. I mean, you're a fantastic attorney, but it's just so apparent that I wonder if anyone's ever said something like that to you. 

Deb Billard [00:13:18] If they have, it's gone right over my head. I mean, I don't think I've ever had a judge say anything like that. I had a client a couple of years ago. And I tell people often it's like I've been doing this for 30 years. I would say there were maybe five people that were truly insane at the time of their crime. I mean, everybody wants to be insane. It's like, well, no, you may have been incompetent, but insanity is different insanity at the time. It's a very high bar, very rare that you actually get that. I had this woman that was truly insane who killed her own mother. It was very sad and we did incredible. And I mean, the signs were all there. It really wasn't all that hard. We just had to track everything down. She'd been Baker acted a bunch of times and there were all kinds of civilian witnesses to her behavior, blah, blah, blah. So long story short, we go to court. The state hired another doctor to dispute my doctor's opinion, and he ended up agreeing. It was like, yeah, she's she was insane, you know? And so the state had nobody to say that she wasn't. And so we ended up stipulating to the reports and the judge found her ndeye and she was going to be taken to the state hospital. Her sister was there and didn't really understand. And she was mad because she had killed your mother and said some very hurtful, hateful things to my client. And my client was crying and freaking out and doesn't know what's going to happen. And I said to the bailiffs, can I go in the back and give her a hug? And they looked at me like I had two heads. And you were just appalled. And I was like, Don't you have any human empathy and compassion? This woman is mentally ill. She's go into the state hospital. Her sister's being mean to her. I just want to give her a hug. What the. Yeah, WTF. I mean, what's the matter with you. Right. And that kind of stuff, you know, it's like I don't care what they did and you hear this all the time, you know, they're not as bad as the one worst day that they ever had. I'm not saying that's exactly right, but it's like some people, just like my guys in the jail, I hug them all the time. I'll probably get arrested if they do. But it's just I mean, I just feel like they need human love and compassion and warmth and, you know, that somebody cares about them. And I just thought that would really help her if I could give her a hug and they wouldn't let me. And I was so pissed I hit a cow. 

Chris Moser [00:15:42] But yeah, no, I mean, it makes them uncomfortable when you show humanity. That's what it was with that judge. I think he had good intentions. I think he thought, oh, Miss Mozz, you're being manipulated. I knew exactly what was going on and he just didn't want to see that 

Deb Billard [00:16:01] as he was doing his judge thing. 

Alison DeBelder [00:16:04] But I think that everything in the system is designed to strip criminal defendants or convicts of their humanity. And it's just pervasive. I was at a prison and I don't even remember the case or why or which prison. But I remember just how there's so much time when you're standing around with, like corrections officers or whatever, waiting for a door to open or for somebody to be brought in to chit chat. And I asked like, hey, what what's everybody having for lunch or something? What's being served for lunch? And they said, oh, that's not human food. Just very casually, I think I might have asked, like, is this baloney sandwich around I can get I haven't eaten or something. And they said, Oh, that's not human food without missing a beat. And I think that that's generally the attitude, right, about why would somebody need a hug? Why? Why any of this? Deb, can you talk a little bit about your client that was featured in the documentary film The Penalty, 

Deb Billard [00:17:13] his name was James Rhodes. It was very infamous. I think the murder happened on my brother's birthday, which is July 20th. And I and I tried not to watch the local news at all because I don't want to know what's going on. So my first case that I had that they actually were trying to kill the guy, and that was when Angela Corey was the state attorney and it was just awful. But we went back and well, he grew up in the boy's home. So we had really good documentation. And it was like this kid didn't have a chance for the moment. He was conceived. And the moment he was born, he never actually met his mother. His mother abandoned him when he was eight months old. The father was a drug addict and alcoholic and it was just horrendous. And I just thought, you know, he never had a chance. He never had a shot. Then he went in the boy's home, which is a state home. He was abused and all the stuff, and now they're trying to kill him. It really can be depressing. But but that's why I don't know. I just you just got to keep fighting. If enough of us stand up and make a stink, it's got to change. It's just got to change. I remember years ago seeing some awful armed robbery, and this is an armed robbery of a Burger King on Beach Boulevard. And they got the manager to open the safe and then they shot her in the leg. Anyway, it wasn't a homicide. It was just I was horrified. Why would you shoot her? She gave you the money. I was pissed at these defendants. And then I come into work on Monday and the jacket's in my basket and I'm going to represent this guy who I met, you know, so but I happened to see the news and this girl was murdered at the MetroPCS on North Main Street. And it was all on video. And it was like not a whodunit at all. And there was DNA. There was. And then I think they arrested the guy and he confessed immediately. But the thing was, before that, an arrest was made, the mother of the girl was down at the police memorial building, sitting on the front steps, refusing to leave until an arrest was made. And after the arrest was made, I was assigned the case. I was over in the state attorney's office on depos on another case. And the mother of the victim is out in the lobby making a stink with all these people with her. And I was like, oh, my God, I hope she doesn't know who I am. And my prosecutor on this other case that I was doing, the depos, he let me hide behind his jacket and he he smuggled me out the door so that she wouldn't see me. It was really funny because I was like, she might jump on me or something. And she's got, of course, her perspective and I've got that I was going to death penalty training seminars and and this one woman who I really respect and admire a lot, her name is Daniel and Research. She's pretty famous in death penalty circles. She was telling us a story about one of her cases. And I think it was her guy had killed a police officer. And, you know, his parents were so upset and devastated and she went up to them and said, I'm so sorry for your loss. And that just kind of melted the victim's parents hearts. And I did feel sorry for this lady. And so I saw her in court one day and I went up to her and I'm scared to death because, you know, she might punch me or something, you know? But I said, I am so sorry for your loss. And I looked her in the eye and I was like, I really meant it. And she just kind of. Melted and she did not believe in the death penalty and she ended up being my best friend and my staunchest supporter, and it was like she and I were fighting against Angela Corey and she would go out and picket in Heming Plaza and appeared on news shows and all the stuff we fought tooth and nail for like years. And then finally. Angela was defeated by Melissa Nelson and Melissa came in and within two months we entered a plea to life because Melissa was not stupid. That was a real experience being involved with that case. And it was it was great to see what could happen when the victim's family is not out for blood. Definitely the right result was and I still you know, I sent his birthday is New Year's Eve, so I sent him twenty five bucks to the prison every on his birthday every year. I went to see him a couple times. And there's some woman that is in a church and she goes, she was visiting him also. And it was this kid that, like I said, he was he never had a chance from the moment he was conceived with the parents that had him. And I was grateful that she was a reason. And now she has gone on to do other death penalty work and talk to other victims' families and try to talk them, because it's like the death penalty. You might think you're going to get closure, but you're not. And there's a lot of people that were cheering and were happy when the person got executed and now it's worse than ever. And that wasn't the correct solution. But they don't understand. But somebody who's been there can guide them. 

Chris Moser [00:22:26] That film was viewed at the college, and it's called The Penalty, and it's directed by Wil Francoism. It really does a wonderful job, I think, covering the duration of what happened through the arrest, through Angela Corey, the election, and then kind of like finally the resolution of the case resolving. 

Deb Billard [00:22:51] Yeah, it was that was an intense time. And then the film has, I think, not only the case, but to other death penalty cases. And they're just following everything all at once. And it was it was very, very good, very powerful. 

Alison DeBelder [00:23:05] Have you ever had any cases where you've been able to do some restorative justice type stuff, getting the defendant together with the victim or victim's family? 

Deb Billard [00:23:17] The only time I ever have and it didn't help. It didn't help. But it did. It was a juvenile. And actually, I've still got his picture up on my wall. He was 14 and he was with these older boys. And it was a long story. He was the shooter. I don't think he intended to shoot. I think that they intended to rob this pizza delivery lady and they hadn't thought through what will we do if she refuses to give up her money and her pizzas? And so I truly believe that he just freaked out and flinched and pulled the trigger, but unfortunately shot her in the heart and she died. So he was 14 at the time. And the co-defendants were like 17 and 18. But our kid was the shooter, so they were really bad at him. The state was like, well, he can. And this was when Angela was the state attorney. And, you know, he can have 40 to life. That was his deal, and I was like, that's not acceptable, but if that's the best, you know, we can't go to trial. I mean, he confessed and the murder weapon was found on him and they used his phone to call the pizza place. And it was like, we're never going to win this and then he'll get life, you know, if we so let's let's plead. And I thought, well, let's try this restorative justice. Let's see what if that might help. And so we got the victim's sister and daughter to meet with me and my client in the state attorney's. And the sister was pretty. The daughter was pissed. But then I think she finally came around a little bit. The sister was actually gracious and said, we're not here to yell at you. We're not here. We just want to tell you about this woman whose life you took. And they started telling stories. And it was actually really, I thought, beautiful. And I was crying. My client was crying. They were crying. The state attorney was crying. It was just they got to tell this their stories to this kid and he got to hear them. And he he really was truly, sincerely contrite and sorry and remorseful and didn't you know, it was just kind of a lovely moment. And then we go to court and the judge gave him life anyway. So it was like all this angst and all this emotion and all this sharing of feelings and all this really helpful healing stuff. And then and it was my judge that I love, but he gave the guy life. It was so off. And the minute he said that, I said to myself, we should have gone to trial, even though I knew we were going to lose. But at least something might have there might have been an issue for appeal. 

Alison DeBelder [00:26:07] How old was your client when he sat down with them, because there was recently another case in your neck of the woods involving 14 year old, and I was thinking about how it's really difficult to impress upon people a jury is what I was thinking of, how young a 14 year old is and how that's a big challenge, because if you get a kid who kills somebody when they're 14, they're a baby. 14 is still very young, but they may well be 16 or 17 when they go to trial. And 16 and 17 year olds, everybody hates a teenager. Teenagers are the worst, you know what I mean? And they're much bigger. Right, right. Right. And so how do you put in everybody's mind the judge, the prosecutor, the jury, how do you hold a child at that age in their mind? So I'm sorry. That was a lot. I had asked how old your kid was when he got to meet the family. 

Deb Billard [00:27:08] I think it actually was pretty quick, I think he was maybe 15, he was still young, he was still Peachfuzz and cute, and now his case is still around. Of course, with all the changes of juvenile law, he's you know, he may get a break. He may get he will get a review. I had the 12 year old, that famous case that allegedly killed his little brother, and that was horrific. Oh, my God. That was he was truly a baby and had been abused again the moment he was conceived. It's like, what chance did this kid ever have? You know? And then with that case, the dream team took over. A bunch of private attorneys decided to step in and do it pro bono, and he ended up getting juvenile sanctions, which was definitely the right solution, the right thing. But it's yeah, it's got these kids. It's you know, I've got two juveniles right now charged with murder. One was sixteen at the time. One was seventeen at the time. Both of them experienced the most horrendous trauma in their young lives. This one kid had his friend shot. And I guess the friend was trying to protect my kid. And so he died on top of my kid. He, you know, like I'm sixty five. I've never had that happen. You know, it's like, you know, he was sixteen and, you know, he allegedly did a terrible thing. But, you know, but for the grace of God, I mean, 

Alison DeBelder [00:28:36] we had an interesting conversation with Diana Johnson recently who I didn't know well before we interviewed her. And she pointed out that one of the hallmarks of the kids in her caseload, she practices juvenile law. She defends kids who are charged with crimes, is how disproportionate the number of kids who have witnessed death is. That's something that really stood out to her, and once she said that, I started thinking back on how many of my clients witnessed violent death and clearly had post-traumatic stress as a result of it. But looking after kids who are charged with crimes and have that kind of stuff in their history is really impossible to wrap your head around because kids are such dumb dumbs anyway, right? No teenager has any sense and can all panic. And we all made rotten decisions one way or another. So when you pile the rest of it on its 

Deb Billard [00:29:36] head, I think if you see this one kid, his friend got shot and died on top of him. And then he was sitting in his living room watching TV or playing video games, and somebody came in and shot his brother in the leg. And I think it just kind of they're desensitized and they don't people say, oh, it's like playing these video games. Well, it's not like playing video games, but if you see it over and over and over and over and over and over and you see people shot down in front of you and, you know, it's just not such a big deal, like for me to see somebody shot. I mean, I've never seen anybody shot. I would just freak out. But these kids, it's it happens all the time, you know, it's just like they're in a war zone. 

Alison DeBelder [00:30:16] I think it's very difficult for people to imagine. I'm sure the average layperson has no conception of the kinds of backgrounds that people have, let alone. You know, when you add in intellectual disability, which so many folks in the criminal justice system have or are close to having, and how that interplays 

Deb Billard [00:30:38] and even homicide now. And it's like nobody is playing with a full deck. I mean, there is there is something wrong with every single one of my clients. You know, some of them are have mental illness, serious, serious drug and alcohol problems, although not as much as you would think. And then the trauma, PTSD, every single one of my clients is traumatized from all the stuff that they have seen in their young lives. It's awful. 

Alison DeBelder [00:31:07] Yet not a lot of wealthy people coming in with these crimes, not a lot of healthy people. It seems like we could come up with a better way to deal with this. 

Deb Billard [00:31:17] I've got a kid that was conflicted out of his case because he picked up another charge in the jail and blah, blah, blah. There was a conflict, but I think he was 18 and had an armed robbery. You know, he robbed a convenience store and nobody got shot. Nobody got hurt. But he had a gun. And so he went to prison and then he was put in solitary for like ten years and he had been sexually abused and physically abused and all the stuff that you hear about. And then he's in solitary and it's like, you know, if you're well-adjusted and smart and have poetry to sustain you, you might even then you're not going to come out well. And he just had nothing and they wouldn't let his family visit. And it was just so it's like you have created this guy and then in the prison, he got stabbed a bunch of times and then everybody surprised that he did what he did. And it's like, you know, you you guys created this. I mean, it didn't have to be this way. He didn't have to be treated like that. And it's just it's really it's very, very sad. 

Alison DeBelder [00:32:23] It seems so obvious, especially the older I get, that there's just this big, awful, cruel machine that takes people who have been brutalized and sends them to be brutalized and then pretends that you should have some different outcome on the other side. It's total madness. I remember when Bill White was running the office and we would go feed the homeless after and I would go to court the next day in the state attorney would be like, so I saw you walking over to the center. Where are you guys doing feeding the homeless? Of course, you guys were after being in court all day. 

Deb Billard [00:33:05] We still do that. 

Chris Moser [00:33:06] Of course you do. Of course you do. It's like they take it personally that you're born to help people. 

Deb Billard [00:33:14] Will these state attorneys and the judges are of the same ilk. So many of them are rich, white, privileged, silver spoon in their mouth. They were never hungry. They never had any of the stuff happen and they just don't get it. I graduated from law school. It was funny because I wanted to be a public defender, but they were having there was a hiring freeze and they said we don't have any. Well, Mr. Frost was the public defender and he was just a love, very unique individual. So we don't have anything right now, but, you know, coming in. So I interviewed and then so went and interviewed at the state attorney's office also. And it was like I really didn't want to be a state attorney, but, you know, I needed a job. I needed to pay for my law school loans and blah, blah, blah, get back to reality. So it happened. It was so funny. I've never been late for a job interview in my life. I'm on my way from the beach to the old courthouse and I catch a boat and a train. And so the main street bridge is up. And then there was a train going through. So I was late to my job interview. It was like, well, this isn't starting off on the right foot at all. And then it's me and all these men smoking cigars in this gross room. And it was I think Edelsten Austin was the state attorney back then. It was all these guys. And they're asking the like, why do you want to be a state attorney? And I said, well, I really don't, but I need the money. You know, I need a job. How do you feel about capital punishment? Totally against it. Could never argue for it in a million. I mean, I answered every single question wrong. I said, I'm so sorry. This is just a waste of time. And if I had gotten the job, I would have been fired in the first week. And of course, I didn't get the job. And then I get home and there's a call from Bill White and magically a position has come open and can I come on Mandy? And I'm like, yes, I'll be there. So I showed up on Monday. And what did join with Davidson and the rest is history. That's awesome. But I could never have done that. I would have sucked at being a state attorney and I had a state attorney one time. I had this client, this is a state attorney that we went around and around for years and he was an ass and mean. We did not get along at all. I had a client that I really cared about, even above and beyond my normal. You know, I love this guy and I forget what he did. I forgot what he was charged with. I don't even remember who it was. But the state attorney said, I hope he goes to prison and gets raped every day for the rest of his life or something. And I was like. How could you how could you think that how could you say that, how could you say that to me? And you know that I like this. I mean, it was just the most disgraceful, disgusting thing in the world. No, I don't think that everybody is like him. But there's just, I don't know, just a complete lack of empathy that is very troubling 

Alison DeBelder [00:36:12] that I don't hear from criminal defendants. No. By the way, I don't hear ugly things like that from criminal defendants ever. 

Deb Billard [00:36:19] No, of course not. 

Chris Moser [00:36:20] That's true. I was just going to say, I think I could have been a state attorney if I had autonomy to make my own choices. And it just seems like so many of these offices are insanely micromanage. There's not a lot of logic to what they do. And I think if you had the authority to do the right thing and it was your caseload and you could control it, I think I could do it 

Deb Billard [00:36:46] and seek justice. Yes. And now there's a couple like Cheli Tebogo that we were talking about before. She was a defense attorney for years, and now she's working at the state attorney's office and she's doing cold cases and people that were unjustly convicted and sounds 

Chris Moser [00:37:05] like a dream 

Deb Billard [00:37:05] job, really doing good things. And there's another lady, Carol Masina, that was a public defender. And now I think she's really I'm not sure exactly what her role is, but trying to help people get their driver's license back and trying to mitigate all the crap. And it's like it's important to have good people in there to, you know. 

Alison DeBelder [00:37:32] I was teaching at FSU social workers who are the nicest people, if you ever want to find a group of optimistic good people, find social workers who've never actually done social work yet. It's really the place to be. But so every now and then, I would have a couple of students each year who thought they might want to go to law school. So, of course, they'd come and talk to me about that or about getting both degrees at the same time. And sometimes they would be real excited about becoming prosecutors. Right. Because their passion that got them into social work was like human trafficking issues, stuff like that. And I would tell them stories about how when I was practicing, when I started, nobody was interested in viewing sex workers as victims, even though they were clearly victims. And I was presenting evidence of them having been tortured and burned and things. Nobody was hearing it. So I think the pendulum has swung a little bit. But so that sort of person tends to say, like, oh, I think I want to be a prosecutor. And because I am so fond of them and they are so pure and good and hopeful, I had to get myself to a place where I couldn't say, don't do it. I had to get myself to a place where I could see we need good people in that role. It is so powerful, it is so important, and there is such a need for people with a strong sense of justice and true righteousness in that role so that I could say nice things to those kids. I have literally dozens of former students that are prosecutors all over the state. Well, so they get my passion for trial work, but then want to work at the state attorney's office. But those are the same people who are creating that as diversion programs and you know what I mean? They'll call me and say you're you'll be so proud of me. Our office implemented this or that. Oh, that's great. I would be remiss if I did not ask you if you still have your pink trial suit for the listeners. Deb has a pink trial suit that would not sit next to a guilty man. 

Deb Billard [00:39:39] I had a run. I had a run of awesome not guilty verdicts with my pink suit. Well, the pink suit, what happened? I had the pink suit. It was a certain size. I lost a bunch of weight. I got the pink suit altered and then the pink suit no longer fit. And anyhow, the pink suit has been retired. I have a lucky beige suit that that does the same thing and I don't wear it for just anybody. But the funny thing about the pink suit, this is so silly. I had a trial and we used to go out to eat at the landing and I had spaghetti or something and got little pinpoints of tomato sauce on my pink suit just tight. And then I thought, if I get it cleaned, that might kill the magic, but I can't go to trial with tomato sauce on my skirt. So what? So I got it cleaned and then I won and so it was OK. The pink suit came through. 

Chris Moser [00:40:31] So how how long was the string? And my follow up question is a few shiping. Is it a powder pink? 

Deb Billard [00:40:38] It's a very light, pale pastel pink. It was just beautiful. It was this really pretty suit. I still have it in my closet that I haven't worn in a long time. I mean, I was on a roll. I was winning a lot of trials. It was so funny. And then I would show up for trial. Not in the pink suit. Look, what's this? Deb know, I'm really sorry. This is a bad case. The power of the pink suit must be used judiciously and cannot be cannot be wasted. It just it was such a it was this still beautiful and it was just really soft and like a flower and it looked good with my coloring. And I have a funny story. So one of the court reporters, her late husband had a hair salon. And so she used to do a French braid in my hair before trials. And it was like I could never have done it myself. And so Lewis Bizzell said I was second chairing a trial with me with this hair sit next to a guilty man. I think not. It was it was this gorgeous, like French braid, but pinned up and just this beautiful hair. And I was like, of course, it's 

Chris Moser [00:41:47] like you're superwoman outfit. 

Deb Billard [00:41:50] Yeah. And you just you feel, I don't know. I used to do trials with E and we had a little he brought me a llama from Peru and we would put the llama on council table. Just it was like my good luck charm. 

Alison DeBelder [00:42:01] It all helps. 

Deb Billard [00:42:02] You got it. You got to do whatever. It's like I said, they're few and far between and especially in homicide, you don't get. So I was on a roll of not guilty homicide verdicts for a while, and that was when the base came into place. So I still wear the base if I got a good case. 

Alison DeBelder [00:42:18] It would be cool to interview some court reporters on these topics because they have this role where I think they become invisible to a lot of people. I mean, that's part of their training. Right. But clerks, I mean, I know they have to handle a lot of evidence and sit through trials, but court reporters, more than any other courtroom staff and personnel, see a ton of. Right, because what happens at trial is not everything. Right. It's just the tip of the iceberg. So the judge isn't seen at all. The trial clerk isn't seen at all. But the court reporters really have to sit through a lot of painful, difficult things and they can't zone out if they don't like it. Right. They have to be keyed in and listening to it. And I don't hear a lot of people talking about, like, how are they doing and what could they use? And so I think defense attorney stories are compelling because you have this weighty responsibility that you feel for how things are going to go. But you do also get to talk to people. You get to have a hand in things. You get to communicate with people. But I feel like in some ways, being a court reporter would be hard because you don't get to do that. You know, you don't get to try to be involved. 

Deb Billard [00:43:27] That's a good point. 

Alison DeBelder [00:43:28] Deb is I have a catch. All question, is there anything that you were thinking about, like in anticipation of our conversation today that we didn't talk about, that you think is important or that you want to add Alison? 

Deb Billard [00:43:39] I do remember years ago you were taking a class at UNEF. I remember you coming back and saying, when did it become apparent that the way to punish people is to lock them in cages? And you were just so pissed about the system. And I was like, yeah, how does locking people up? What what does that do? What possible good does that do? It doesn't rehabilitate them. It's just our whole penal system is flawed. I'm just kind of I don't know I don't know what I'm going to do when I retire. I'm sure I'll still do something, you know, teach yoga in the jail or whatever you laugh. 

Alison DeBelder [00:44:15] But I think that would be an amazing way to spend your time. I think you'd really enjoy it. I think you'd bring a lot of comfort and peace to people who really need it. 

Deb Billard [00:44:26] Yeah, I just you know, it's funny because, like, I'm kind of in the twilight of my career and I'm looking forward to retirement. I don't know if you guys remember the show Hill Street Blues. Sure. The cop show. So Joyce Davenport was the public defender. She was this beautiful woman with long, dark hair. And she was having an affair with a police captain, which I have not ever done. A day's not over yet. 

Alison DeBelder [00:44:51] The day's not over yet. 

Deb Billard [00:44:53] But it was so funny. So I, I decided to go to law school and then I tell my friends I get to be a public defender. And my friend Nancy Deb, you just always wanted to be Joyce Davenport, didn't you? And I said, I think I did. I really liked that. She was always outwitting the cops and always outwitting the prosecutors and just her and her briefcase and her suit and she would march in there and make everybody look like fools and marched out with her client and get them out of jail. It's like being a warrior. You know, it's it's there's something I like a good fight. So it was it was the perfect career and I'm so grateful that I chose it. 

Alison DeBelder [00:45:31] I am, too. We really appreciate you taking the time to talk about some stuff. That's sort of a bummer. So I wanted to close with a nice thought. And so I just wanted to read to you a text message to close on a happy note. We were going back and forth and she was telling me that you had showed up for some of her son's baseball games. Her son is an amazing baseball player. He's very talented young man in high school. And I know you're a big baseball fan and she's texted, it's weird to say, but Deb is the kind of person who I would want to be my mom. She's amazing. I heart Deb. And so I said, that's so sweet. I won't tell her you said it. And then she said, you can tell her. I hope she'll be both my surrogate mom and come to Jamieson's college games with her scorecard like she does for FSU games. And I don't even care if that's weird to say. 

Deb Billard [00:46:27] Oh, that's so sweet and so cool. 

Alison DeBelder [00:46:31] It is sweet and cool. Same so Nicole, which is you could be her mom or Deb. 

Deb Billard [00:46:38] You know, everything happens the way it's supposed to. I mean, everything happens for a reason. 

Alison DeBelder [00:46:42] And you've also you've been this presence in so many clients lives. But then also I don't know if it's maternal, but the impact that you've had on so many other lawyers, too, because everybody that I mentioned, I was going to get to talk to you, every one of them said she's the greatest. In other words, explaining how you set a good example about what a good relationship with a client is and when a client's being a jerk, how to laugh it off and not take it seriously and come back with a generous spirit to that person who's being a jerk and how to deal with evidence. That was another refrain that I heard was that nobody's as good as Deb at looking at the evidence and finding the right angle. And so I don't know if you realize that, but you really have influenced so many lawyers in exactly the ways I feel like you would hope to influence other lawyers. 

Deb Billard [00:47:37] Well, that's that's very moving. 

Chris Moser [00:47:40] You're like a bouquet of balloons, like I will always remember being forced into labor with no drugs and I never saw you, but I saw you. It's imprinted in my brain forever, like you coming down to see me 

Deb Billard [00:47:57] marching down the hall of Flagler Hospital and hearing the shrieks like, oh, shit. It's been a pleasure and a joy to talk to two of my favorites in the whole world. And, you know, it's so funny that, you know, I'm grateful and humbled, but it's funny because I think everybody has their niche and everybody has their talent and everybody has you know, there's some people in this office that I cannot their understanding of DNA, I'm like, well, my that is not my cup of tea. I mean, I have no idea what you're talking about. It sounds like it's all Greek, but I've got my little my thing that I'm good at and he's got his thing that he's good at and she's got her thing that and we all collaborate and help each other. And that's how it works. 

Alison DeBelder [00:48:49] Trauma injustice is created by Chris Moser and Alison DeBelder and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. Please be sure to like review and read us. It means a lot.