Lead with Love: Carla Laroche

Chris and Alison speak with Professor Carla Laroche, who developed and directs the Civil Rights and Racial Justice Clinic at W&L Law.  Professor Laroche has her AB from Princeton, her MPP from Harvard, and her JD from Columbia.  She previously was a clinical professor at Florida State University College of Law, where she founded and directed the Gender and Family Justice Clinic.  They discuss the work of her clinics, how she prepares students for what they will encounter in practice, and traumatic experiences that she has faced in her own life and practice.

We discuss an article by Maryam Ahranjani, “Toughen Up, Buttercup” versus #TimesUp: Initial Findings of the ABA Women in Criminal Justice Task Force, 25 Berkeley J. Crim. L. 99 (2020), https://digitalrepository.unm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1835&context=law_facultyscholarship

Also, this article about "imposter syndrome,"

And here's some extra reading recommended by Prof. Laroche on the language of social justice:
-An Open Letter to Our Friends on the Question of Language https://cmjcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/CNUS-AppropriateLanguage.pdf 

- Social Justice Phrase Guide https://www.opportunityagenda.org/sites/default/files/2017-03/Social%20Justice%20Phrase%20Guide.pdf

We discuss the adultification of Black girls and this is a 2017 study on that:  Girlhood Interrupted:  The Erasure of Black Girls' Childhood.

Transcript

Laroche_Transcript.mp3

Interviewer [00:00:04] This is trauma and justice. This is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma in the justice system. These conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. I'm Alison DeBelder and I'm Chris Moser. Welcome. Our guest today is Professor Carla Laroche. Professor Laroche is an Assistant Clinical Professor of law at Washington and Lee School of Law. She has degrees from Princeton. Her undergraduate degree Harvard, a master's in public policy. And Columbia. Her Juris Doctorate Professor Laroche developed and directs the Civil Rights and Racial Justice Clinic at Washington and Lee, where her scholarship focuses on the intersection between mass incarceration, gender and families. She's formerly a clinical professor at Florida State University College of Law, where she founded and directed the Gender and Family Justice Clinic. She was a criminal justice reform fellow at Southern Poverty Law Center. Prior to joining FSU College of Law, she also clerked in the Southern District of Florida for the honorable Donald M. Middlebrooks. She's received a number of awards, including the National Bar Association's 40 Under 40 Excellence in Activism, the Young Lawyer Division's Humanitarian Award. She was named an ABA on the rise Top 40 young lawyer. She also co-chairs the American Bar Association's criminal justice sections Women in Criminal Justice Task Force. She was also named by the Tallahassee Democrat as one of the 25 women to know in 2021. Welcome, Carla. Thank you for being here. 

Carla Laroche [00:02:04] Thank you for that lovely introduction. I kind of have to roll my eyes. I'm like, Oh, I forgot I sent these things to me because like, that's what I've done, and I tell this to my students at the beginning of class. It's what I've done, but that's not who I am. So I normally have a slide that says, like, who am I really? I'm an auntie. I'm a sister, I'm a daughter, I'm a friend. I think I'm funny, even if nobody else does, right? And so like when people read that I'm just like, Yeah, I'm I did that, but I'm not that. So thank you. 

Interviewer [00:02:36] I don't think that I know how you came to the law. Do you have lawyers in your family? What made you want to practice law in the first place? 

Carla Laroche [00:02:44] No, I don't. When I was younger, I told a family member that I wanted to be a teacher and a lawyer. Not really. I mean, I knew what teachers did because I went to school, not really understanding what lawyers said, but because I like to argue from the time I could talk, people just my dad kept calling me Avoca, which is lawyer in Coyle Haitian Creole. And so I told a family member that, and they said I had to choose one. And I said, why? Again, this was I was very young, but 

Interviewer [00:03:18] still, boy, you showed 

Carla Laroche [00:03:19] them. And that's the funny piece. It's like going through. I kind of forgot about lawyering and then certain points. I felt like my skills were best set for lawyering without really understanding what lawyers said besides going and watching it on TV. And so trying to investigate what law looks like outside of my own experience as a black woman, first generation Haitian-American, right? Like, what does it actually mean to be those things in a society that is supposed to have social justice and equality under the law? And in that I grew in the like in my passion for public interest law in using the law to reach a state eventually. I mean, probably not in our lifetimes, but bit by bit trying to address these social justice issues. I did an extra shift at like a prosecutor's office in law school. It was like just this opportunity to see if different thoughts about law school. But I was able to experience different parts of the law and work with different parts of the law. And so the long answer to say, I really don't know how it came about, it was just thinking about where I could do the most good. And thinking about where the most harms have been under government sanctioned policies and statutes and seeing how different people who were like me and not like me were harmed by those of government sanction laws, it just made more sense for me to become a lawyer and be in the law. Also, I did one. One week of training and then one experience as a candy striper and never went back, so I knew medical wasn't for me. So yeah, 

Interviewer [00:05:10] I feel like that is probably so many lawyers stories, right? That something, something and medical wasn't for me 

Carla Laroche [00:05:21] because it's that idea of wanting to be an agent of good, an agent of trust, an agent of like help and all mean help and like a savior complex, but help and like, what can I do to make the people around me safer in some regards? And like doctors, you think of doctors, you think of lawyers. Granted, there's so many other professions and occupations and positions that allow you to do that. But we talk about doctors and lawyers. So it's like, OK, I have yet to experience the others, so I guess I'm going to be the other one. And I think we do a disservice to children that way, trying to fit them into a box, right? But in this regard, it did help. 

Interviewer [00:06:02] I do want to talk about your class, but before we get around to the work that you're doing now, I'm wondering if you have particular professors or courses from law school that stand out as being particularly influential yourself. 

Carla Laroche [00:06:21] Yes. One who definitely comes to mind is Philip Jannetty, who was my clinic professor, and to this day, I still email him or questions for recommendations. So answers to questions, recommendations, just general advice. As I go through this process because I didn't have lawyers in my family, definitely didn't have professors in my family. And so I have learned the hard way that I do need people who are ahead of me who have already experienced some of these things, even if it's not from my perspective of my lens to give their perspective. And I use that through my ailments. And so Philip gently taught the incarceration and family clinic at Columbia Law School. And I based my FSU clinic off of it, where we went into Bedford Hills Women's Prison, the only maximum security prison in New York, and conducted family law presentations and also took on representation of parents. In my case, it was a termination of parental rights appeal. I did that my spring, second year of law school and then my last semester of grad and law school because I did a joint degree. So my last semester was actually at Harvard. But I returned to argue with my clinic partner. The case before the appellate court and he just had a lot of experience was very willing to answer my million and one questions, which is what one needs as a first, just like I don't know what I don't know. And so asking a question and then learning, Oh wait, there was more to this issue than I was just looking at the surface. And so he was very helpful that also Pedro Modesta, who wasn't a professor, she was the dean of career services at Columbia Law School, and she is just a good person one, but also a successful legal mind and who again was willing to answer my questions and guide me. So I tell the story about how we officially met. We had met before and like some gathering for the Black Law Students Association at Columbia. And I have this thing where like, if I meet someone and think like, I want to either be their friend or for them to help me, they don't know that. And so I went to her office and said, Can we meet one day so we can talk about my life? And she was like, Sure, but who are you? Right? Like, I was just like, Yeah, we're really friends. And because I had made you this mentor for me in my head, but you have no idea about this. And she just took it all. She took me on, took my ridiculous ideas on. 

Interviewer [00:09:09] Can you share with us the conceit of the clinic that you started at Florida State Law School and your experiences with that? I know that you impart patterned it after the clinic that you had in law school. But tell us a little bit about that, if you would. 

Carla Laroche [00:09:27] Sure. I had the opportunity to think about what type of clinic I would want to teach, which is not what many people are able to do. Sometimes clinics have a set line, a set topic, and you come in and continue it. Sometimes you present it, propose a topic and an issue, and that's what I was able to do. I was restricted in the fact that I had to teach family law or have the students do family law cases. But I was able to connect my interest in criminal legal system issues with gender and with mass incarceration, generally with family law, which is a topic that the intersection of all those people often forget. There are conversation when you look at COVID and the amount of people who have contracted COVID or who have died from COVID in prisons and jails, and the response being, well, I'm focused on the families who are on the outside. You forget that the people on the inside also have families. Also, our mothers, daughters, grandmothers like aunties, but also fathers, grandfathers the same. And so I wanted to make that more real. My students used to go into when the clinic was running and go into Leon County Detention Facility and oh wow, I'm looking at my name right now. Gadsden Correctional, the private women's prison in northern Florida and teach farming my workshops. The unique piece on the workshops were that we sent the women at Gadsden a survey form and said there will be one hour workshops on family law. Are you interested? So check off a box, but also what type of topics within that issue? So it was child custody and visitation which is timesharing in Florida, but we want to make sure that we hit those who wouldn't know what that meant. So like, we're moving the legalize child support, domestic violence and interpersonal violence, estate planning and other. And so in the first week of the clinic's creation, which was in the spring of twenty nineteen, seems so far away. We got 100 in the first like week or so. 

Interviewer [00:11:46] Can you define for the listeners what interpersonal violence means, I think a lot of people are familiar with what domestic violence is? 

Carla Laroche [00:11:55] Yes. When you think of domestic violence or violence within this idea of restraining orders or injunctions, you might think of it being a partner against a partner or spouse, against a spouse or a loved one. But it can be more than that. It can be someone who you were dating. So a dating violence injunction or restraining order, it could be someone who stalking you and you don't know that person. There was no domestic like relationship in that regard, but you still would like protection from them. And so it is relationships in the sense of a person, a person, but it's not the traditional domestic violence family member in the whole. And Florida has five or six of these types of pieces. Like I said, domestic dating, stalking. I'm liking a repeat. And I believe there's one more that I'm blanking on right now. 

Interviewer [00:12:50] Maybe sexual? 

Carla Laroche [00:12:51] Yes. Thank you, sexual. And again, that doesn't have to be a relationship piece. 

Interviewer [00:12:56] So when you talk about the workshop, can you describe the spaces where they were held and what it looked like? Is this one law students speaking individually with one inmate? What's the format? 

Carla Laroche [00:13:11] Just a piece of like terminology that I present to my students as well. We don't use the term inmate, so we try to like, use people first language. So for us, it would be the attendee or the mother. And so for these, once we got the surveys, the students would then read all of them. And so there was a sense of we are having this like connection with people. And from there. What then will you present on? So not this will just be good because I think it's going to be good. But this is going to be good because I've read all of these surveys and they're telling me they want this. And so they would do mock workshops, what would be and the real workshops which would be in a classroom. So they were able like we were able to go into the prison and jail and meet with the attendees in a classroom. We would bring in while students would bring it because I would watch them, but they would be doing all the work if they would come in with these. The requirement that I had was that at least one sheet back in front so that the attendees could take it with them no matter what, and also because space is limited in a prison or in a facility, getting like huge documents would not be helpful. They might have pictures that they want instead, but a one pager would be very helpful. And so it would be the students presenting to. At one point we had like 40 or 50 max people. The average was, I want to say, about 20 and depending on the topic. So child custody, visitation, most popular and domestic violence injunctions two of the most popular ones. 

Interviewer [00:14:45] Isn't that telling? Yes. Yes. Like, I just want to take a breath and think about what that means. 

Carla Laroche [00:14:52] Yeah, and some of the responses said things like especially for the domestic violence injunction piece was like, How do I talk to when I get out, how do talk to my kids about what we all experienced? And also like, how do I protect myself and my children on this issue? There were also cool ones like my relationship with my kids is great right now, but my daughter has a two year old and I want to learn this information just in case she needs it. And so the educational path would extend beyond those who were in the room. So the students would do about a 45 minute presentation trying to break down the legalese, and then the attendees would be able to ask questions. But there was the caveat that we all know we're not providing legal advice. This is not creating an attorney client relationship because that would allow us to help more people. But also we gave them the clinic mailing address and sadly, they can write to us if they were interested in representation or more information or other workshop material. And so that's how we got some of our cases as well, and we had a prison letter project where students would respond to the letters as well. 

Interviewer [00:16:05] And I was going to ask you about that because you all also represented people. There were cases that you did take on, right? 

Carla Laroche [00:16:11] Yes. Yes. And we got referrals from many places. So we got referrals from the through the workshops and through actually the prisons in the jails. You mentioned earlier that I worked for Southern Poverty Law Center and I used to interview people held in closed management, also known as solitary confinement. And the amount of work we had to do to get into these prisons and jails was just quite honestly ridiculous. It's like, what are you hiding when all we want to do is talk to people and fast forward to FSU, where it's like, When are you coming next? Like, Wait, what? This is weird. 

Interviewer [00:16:48] I was going to ask, because it seems like you went very quickly from joining FSU and getting everything up and running. How did you manage that with the jail and the prison? Were they anxious to form this? Were they familiar with FSU? How did that work out? 

Carla Laroche [00:17:05] The meetings that I had at the beginning with the prison in the jail were so positive. One Correctional Facility administrator said it is actually a safety issue for them. If, for example, a mother doesn't know where their children are. And so then they might respond physically to that, endangering his officers. And so if they have the tools to figure out where their kids are and to, like, figure out their rights, he viewed it as beneficial to his jail and his prison. I can't remember the jail or prison who I spoke to, which administrator was, but I was just like, I'm glad you understand that. Like, Yes, it's through the lens of you as an administrator, but it also benefits those who are incarcerated. And so, yeah, there was a lot of positive conversations about it. And because the loss of funding for programs in prisons and jails, there is very limited opportunities for people to learn about these issues. If it were not for non-profits and for law schools or schools generally. 

Interviewer [00:18:07] So tell us about the new clinic at Washington and Lee. 

Carla Laroche [00:18:11] Yes, it's still in the works. Hopefully, by the time this airs, I will have more to tell you. But no, it's just with so many, so much of a need this civil rights and racial justice clinic. My nice and unfortunate challenge to have is there's so much I can do. And so how do I limit to not overwhelm myself, not overwhelm my students as they learn what the law has done to? Black communities to indigenous and native communities year-by-year, law by law. We're focusing on economic rights and narrowing that some more on housing and unemployment. When I first proposed the clinic, my goal was to not do criminal legal system issues. That's what I did before, as we discussed. That's what my research is on. But I feel like we as a society have understood or are getting more understanding about the fact that the criminal legal system is racist. It was built on racist premises. Its goals are racist, but there are so many other fields and areas where the same applies. So what other issues would be productive in a clinic where my students in their limited time with me could help but also digest and reckon with that law? I mean, if I would have said about the criminal legal system probably 20 years ago, there would have been a lot of pushback. But we are now seeing so much obvious evidence. And if we peel back the layers for housing and employment, the same can be said. So I wanted to look at something that we have yet to. We as a society have yet to really digest and see where I could take it. Unfortunately, in a lot of places, so. 

Interviewer [00:20:08] Yeah, but that's also, like you said, exciting. I would note just for the audience who might not be familiar that when you're talking about these cases, the actual cases where you're representing clients, when the students leave, the students are only there for your class when the students leave. The case doesn't go away. It doesn't follow the students. Yeah, it stays on your desk. Yes. And so I feel like that's got to be a challenge in how you design these things because you're just going to always have an ever increasing caseload and the students are only there for a short period of time. I mean, if they're handling an eviction, they can handle whole eviction. It'll be done quickly. But outside of that, you know, these things last a long time. How do you balance that? 

Carla Laroche [00:21:01] Thanks for actually breaking down what a clinic, actually. Actually, I realize I was talking about it, but not explaining it. So, yes, my students under my bar license take on actual, real life cases. And like I said, I try to find the gaps. And so where a legal aid organization is, I might partner with them to say, what type of cases are you declining because they're just too many other cases. I will then get those referrals from partners or through word of mouth. My students are the ones who meet with the client, speak with the client, go to court. If it's a litigation court case type case, we also are likely going to do some systemic reform pieces in the spring, meaning larger projects trying to bring about change without a courtroom, without a judge. But they take on that representation there. Oftentimes, as you said, when the semester ends and then I call a client and they're like, Who are you? And I'm like, I'm your lawyer. Like, Where so-and-so like, they graduated? I'm actually the one that's outside what it's like. But there is value in having students come in and learn there is risk involved, too. But that's my role in ensuring that I have a clinic that has like conversations or relationships with the students where they trust me to tell me when they made mistakes. But also, I want to highlight when they will not win in a sense of case, because there's a lot of losing. 

Interviewer [00:22:33] Yes, I have a logistical question because I've run clinics and I try to take real cases and I do take real cases. But other law schools that I've spoken with said, Well, you can just do this as a simulation, right? And some law schools actually do it that way. And so that really doesn't appeal to me. But I think one of the reasons why they put that forward is because they don't have a budget. And so the value and having real clients in real cases, I think, is what the students remember and get them excited and passionate about their own advocacy, even if they go into patent law or something after your class. Mm-Hmm. You touched on some ideas for larger policy projects or systemic issues that you are considering. Could you speak more about either identifying clear problems or ideas that you might incorporate in your class? 

Carla Laroche [00:23:38] So this is a year long clinic which is different from when I was at FSU. Which was a semester, so again, a different thinking, like all of us, is going to be different for me, money, if you we talk again next year. But like, yeah, I change the whole thing, which I've been known to do at FSU, I did that. But for right now, this next semester, my students will be taking on cases, but they're also going to go into the community and do those workshops again, create those partnerships. And it is. My goal for the semester is simply for the students to learn what the issues are. What is it in the realm of economic rights and racial justice that they hear their clients talk about? They see with their own eyes in the community what is going on? And then in the spring, they will come together and with my ultimate veto, but like, choose their topics for that systemic reform. And so I can't tell you what this spring will look like because it depends on what the students see. And people, I think, like simulations because yes, they're safe. You can give a packet. But that's not how the world world world works. You might do all this research and present it to a client, and they're like, No, I'm not doing that right and that you can't like. You can technically do that in the simulation, but you can't because it's like, Wait. But this is the best way to go. Yeah, but that won't work for me because my situation isn't that. So what else do you have? What else can you offer me? And so that, like, real life piece is important. 

Interviewer [00:25:21] Where did you learn how to write? Was it an undergrad or 

Carla Laroche [00:25:26] Classic Tetris Al explain the reason why is because I still have a struggle with writing. I do too. I do too. Yeah. So like I, as Alison mentioned in the introduction, I graduate from Princeton. My last semester at Princeton. I had an amazing, really amazing year with a different black professors, two of which were Cornel West and Eddie Glaude and Eddie Glaude class. Way over my head, I was like, I want to learn, so let's just do it. And we had to meet with him after submitting a draft for paper. And I remember this to this day. I tell, I tell my students this as well. He said my idea was ingenious. My writing was atrocious, and I was like, Yeah, I know I'm very self aware, y'all. But he said after that, but don't worry, I was the same. I didn't know how to write until grad school. 

Interviewer [00:26:31] Oh wow. Yeah, I can teach you. I had a professor just like that. Just like that. 

Carla Laroche [00:26:36] Yeah. And so I. And he was right. I didn't really. I thought. That I need to write a certain way that and that wasn't me, that wasn't the way I talked. That wasn't the way I wanted to be seen. But I went through undergrad thinking in that way and not being authentic. And then it wasn't until I graduate from Princeton and then did a Prince in Africa fellowship, where I was in Tanzania for a year and I wanted to describe to people back home what I was experiencing. And so it wasn't about some academic fluff. It was. This is fascinating. I am learning about myself, but also about this new country that I'm in and this new experience. And so I emailed these stories and these experiences, these reflections, and it was to them. I was like, Oh, this is how I want to write. This is how I want to be known. Also, having first generation parents, I want to try as hard as possible to ensure that I break it down so that it's more about the experience of months about like, I don't use big words. I don't know big words. I don't think it would take me too long to get a dictionary or like, Look it up. It's just like, All right, I'm going to use this word. 

Interviewer [00:27:51] I don't know if this is true, but I was just talking to someone about this. I've read that unless you learn those big words in like a K through 12, that that's why I can't pronounce certain words. 

Carla Laroche [00:28:04] I didn't know that 

Interviewer [00:28:06] being around so many highly educated people. Sometimes I stumble over very simple words, or I don't. I've never seen it, and I can figure out in context. And then I read somewhere. That's why. So I'm not sure about that. 

Carla Laroche [00:28:20] That's interesting. Yeah, it happens to be the same way where I'm like in my head. I know that word, but I can't say it out loud. But yes, I was through those experiences. Eddie Glaude was correct, and I appreciate him telling you the truth because I would prefer not to get like some unhelpful feedback as I'm trying to learn. And then I eventually did. And so when I started grad school, I held that belief and that understanding and that authenticity in my writing and we get positive feedback, which was new to me because I had never really gotten in an educational sense, in an academic sense. Positive feedback from my writing. I mean, I still get like, this is it makes sense. What are you trying to do here? Also, keep writing well, reading it after you write it, before you send it, submit it because I was like, This is going to be horrible. So why would I don't want to read this mess? So just send it. Yeah, so proofreading helpful. 

Interviewer [00:29:14] Those are skills you can learn if you've made it this far. Those are things that you can learn, and we can demystify those things because a lot of it, it's not smoke and mirrors, but a lot of it is the legalese like, you talked about an accessibility and you are you and everyone is their own person, and that's the evolution that everyone eventually takes, I hope. Carla, I want to talk about personal traumatic experiences that you've had in the law, the American Bar Association's criminal justice section has a women in Criminal Justice Task Force and that's what you co-chair. And I think it's important to note that even though it is titled the Women in Criminal Justice Task Force, it's not endorsing a binary of any type. It also included gender nonconforming lawyers. And you were tasked with exploring issues that were related to hiring, retention and promotion of women in criminal law. Part of that was an 18 month long series of listening sessions that you held, and there is an amazing article in the Berkeley Journal of Criminal Law, which was authored by Miriam Aron Johnny. And what I'll do is put a link to that article on all of our social media when we publish this episode, and I would encourage all of our listeners to go and take a look at that. So I have lots of questions. I could talk to you about that all day, but I guess I'm going to start with what stands out from that process for you about women's experiences and especially women with intersectional identities, which were highlighted in that article 

Carla Laroche [00:31:09] when Tina Longo and I really thought about what we wanted for the task force. We knew we wanted a diverse task force membership, and the membership is diverse in so many regards, but also so inspiring. We had never met many of the women and people who joined the task force, but it felt like we knew each other for a long time. And so that's one of the pieces. 

Interviewer [00:31:39] How many people were a part of it? I guess there are 13 members. 

Carla Laroche [00:31:43] Gina Longo, again is the co-chair, and they are the legal laid criminal practice head in New York, New York City. And they've had so much experience. I've learned so much from them and they will be in two or three years, the head of the criminal justice section next in line. And then we have Mariam Erin Jani, who is a law professor at University of New Mexico. As you said, she wrote the article and then I think 11 or 12 other task force members from different regions, different practice groups, different experiences. Different identities. It's hard to define or explain what this task force has meant to me, it just in my regular piece, I had mentors on there like Judge Bernice Donald, who if we talk about criminal legal system issues or judges like, I will be singing her praises. She's going to be going on just on your side, as if she has not yet in the Sixth Circuit. I believe she was the first black person or black woman to be elected a state court judge in Tennessee. It has just been the first in many regards in many spaces to a former student who I nominated to join the task force when she was still a student. Daniella De Nosso. She was one of my originals from the clinic, the Gender and Family Justice Clinic, and now she is a E.J. W Equal Justice Work Fellow in Tallahassee. And so we range in experience again, ages perspectives, but all with the goal of making this profession realize that there needs to be systemic, like genuine, not performative, genuine changes so that we can have lawyers and practitioners and advocates who feel as if this profession is for them. That's ultimately the goal. 

Interviewer [00:33:42] I guess that brings me to my other question, which is what are the ways, if there are any that you have received the message that that's not the case? 

Carla Laroche [00:33:52] Oh yeah, yeah. One do read the article the Alison mentioned, which was toughen up buttercup versus me to toughen up buttercup was a quote or a statement by one of the individuals who testified to the task force through our listening sessions. I can't remember the location, though, and this desire or this like imposition that women and gender nonconforming people need to like just work within this biased system to get their jobs done, to complete their roles. And so there were just many and just too many stories, too many unfortunate and unnecessary stories and navigation required navigation of the cultural system and bias lines that people need to go through that intersectionality piece, whether intersectionality meaning the intersection of, for example, my race and my gender. I do not know a certain times if someone is saying something to me that is discriminatory because of my race or my gender, because I am both. And so my own interactions, I often question like. Hmm. Would someone who didn't look like me, for example, a white man have gotten the same response back that I did for doing what I need to do for my job or for my client? And we can't disassociate again the intersectionality of my race and my gender, for example, hearing about those different pieces. I recommend that people do read the article and also read the summaries of a lot of the task force listening sessions at the ABA Criminal Justice Section magazine has online. You have to be an ABA member to get into those pieces, but they're all very powerful. Like some of them, I got summaries of the listening sessions. Some are personal narratives about what it meant for them to testify to the task force. Jessica, yery the elected public defender in Tallahassee, has an upcoming piece that talks about what the task force meant for her. We had a law student or recent graduate talk about what the task force meant to her, and so it's from different perspective as well, but through their own lens. So I didn't really answer your question, but it's more because I would love your listeners to read and learn about these people through their own words as opposed to me. 

Interviewer [00:36:23] Yeah, it's such an important resource and it's engrossing. This is not dry, boring academic stuff to read. It's so necessary. And that's become really clear to us because as we've had episodes published where we've had women who are lawyers talk about some of their experiences, we've had so much incredible feedback from listeners that we've never met before. We've had people tell us that they felt exactly the same ways, and they've never heard anybody talk about it before, referring to the discrimination that they've faced or biases that they've faced as women, that they've never felt comfortable talking to anybody about it because of the toughen up buttercup mentality. We've had people contact us and say thank you because they were sexually assaulted at work and they were laughed at when they reported it. They were given the message that this is part of the expectation that you will endure if you continue to practice law as a woman. And so just the people that have taken the time to reach out to us reinforces what we already knew, which is that this work is really essential. I hope every law student reads it and other teachers, even outside of the law, consider sharing it with their students. I'm definitely going to share it with my students, and we haven't even touched upon pay equity. I can't wait to read all of the stories that people shared 

Carla Laroche [00:38:00] at the end of day. It's really about transparency and just giving each person access to be successful. It's why would this black woman have to go through all these hoops when they're seeing white men not have to go through with them? Yes. And we know why. Right? But that black woman might be gaslighted right and be like, No, it's because of X, Y and Z where it's like, but they didn't have to do X, Y and Z. We're in the same class. Why am I excluded or this? I can't remember if it's in the follow up that Professor Erin Johnny writes or in the original article, Toughen up Buttercup, where people who testified talked about like trying to plan their pregnancies around the requirements to get to the next level, as opposed to realizing that, like, why does it have to be competition between your family and your job? And also, people with a lot more financial resources and other privileges don't have to make that. They don't have to do that navigation. So it's just time. It's been time, a very long time. But we're glad as a task force that we're able to keep that pressure on. And yeah, this task force started up as a three year thing and we're in our fourth year. We also need to figure out like sustainability pieces, but there's just so much to do. So it's time. 

Interviewer [00:39:37] And it also puts me in mind of Bryan Stevenson story about an occasion when he was mistaken for his client, for being the defendant, the criminal defendant in court. And he talks about how when he corrected everyone's misapprehension that the judge was laughing and that the prosecutor was laughing and that he laughed along with them because that was what he needed to do to get the result for his client. And I get that. And it's also just sickening. 

Carla Laroche [00:40:10] And going back to the trauma piece that is trauma, you are being diminished and you must laugh along with those who are diminishing you, the amount of time that people have, quote unquote confused me with a client or an accused or anyone else who was not a lawyer to the point where they repeat. No, the client sits in this seat. The attorney sits in that seat like, Yeah, I know I heard you the first time 

Interviewer [00:40:38] that's happened to you to Carla. 

Carla Laroche [00:40:40] Yeah, how many times? I mean, recently it was with a clerk pre-pandemic where I introduced myself as a lawyer for a client. And then the immediate response was, your attorney? No, I'm like, Wait, I just told you I was. And there are other people around and it was still like, and I think the thing that people forget, like you are defending your right to be in a space that you have every right to be it right. It's not like. I have gone to school. I have gotten these positions, and now I need you every single day and not need to, I have to in order to defend my clients and to protect my clients interests, not only defend their interests, but also simply prove that I am supposed to be in this space that I have done many years of education and many years of service to get to. And so the added Thor process of OK, yes, I am. Do you need to see my bar card even though you ask no other person here for it, right? And then the jokes that, oh, you look so young. What I think is interesting about that response, especially besides the Oh, you don't look like a professor or you don't look like a lawyer is for the young cases. When I was younger, when I was in elementary school, in high school. People tell me I was. I look so much older for my age. And so when I gained this authority, that is when I became younger looking. And so it's like the we can go into how much research has been done on black girls and how they're data fed, meaning viewed as adults more than other demographic children. But the reverse is now I look so young, so therefore I can't be in this space or I just don't look like it, meaning I am not a white man or a white person. And so having to take that in. Push it aside and then get back to business for my client is exhausting. It is traumatic. It is one of these things where I don't normally well. I do talk about it in class because there are people of color in my class and they will need to be prepared for this, right? And so not preparing our students for what the legal profession will do to you is a disservice to our students. 

Interviewer [00:43:05] Well, that was my next question. Thank you for being a mind reader. I was going to ask, how are you if you are at all addressing the traumatic experiences that your students, you can expect that your students will have in their practice? Do you talk to them about healthy and unhealthy ways of coping? Do you talk to them like before you read surveys about family law questions that this is going to involve violence? Likely this is going to involve family separation? Do you? And if you do, how do you address these things with your students? 

Carla Laroche [00:43:40] 100 percent, it's necessary. I put it in my syllabus to begin with. I say, like we are going to be talking about, I forget the exact language, but for a shortened version, heavy and traumatic topics which might be triggering for individuals, I am never going to ask you to or demand that you talk about your personal experiences. And I've now added to my syllabus well, and if you need to leave, please do. I recently had an experience where I shut down during a traumatic racial issue, and in my mind I was like, We need to get up and leave. Protect yourself. But I'm also a woman who's been socialized not to make a scene. And so like having that battle in my head as this was going on, I was fat again. Like I said, I'm very self aware. And so I want to keep you having conversations with myself about that. Like why at this age and I told you from the beat, like as a child, I was very like, Whatever, I'm going to do what I want to do. And yet I still am in this society and unwilling in certain regards. I mean, other guards, I'm like, Oh no, I'm leaving or engage in that, but I shouldn't have to. And so I've added to the syllabus that if you need to leave, you can do so. I want to make sure that the students are aware that it is okay to remove yourself from a situation that is just simply dramatic. And they might not tell me that situation is traumatic. I don't know. And I also don't find it fair to request or demand that people share with me because I am not a therapist. I don't have that education. I want to ensure that they have some of the skills, but I can't take on that role for students or for others, right? Like more than like, we all come with some traumatic experience, and one of the things I do say is seek the advice and help of those with the experience, like seek a counselor there. We need to normalize that. And so that's one way. Another way is like with assignments, but it's hard with assignments because something that I might see through my lens think is not going to be triggering, maybe for others. And so that's why I put it in. My syllabus is like as a heads up office, please do this. 

Interviewer [00:46:05] But I believe my clinical class at USF was pass fail. Is yours graded or is it pass fail? 

Carla Laroche [00:46:14] FSU was passed. Fail. Now it's graded again. Another one of these changes that I need to address because it was passed fail. I was able to help the students more so with their own personal legal growth. If that like, it sounds opposite. But in order to be a stronger lawyer, you need to realize how you want to be in that space here. Well, not here, because I haven't done it yet, but my fear is that people will try to do the clinic in the hopes of getting an A. As opposed to and not actually reflecting on what an AA would look like in a clinic. And that might be taking a risk that might be being creative about something even the norm. Is this 

Interviewer [00:46:58] and failing? 

Carla Laroche [00:47:00] Yes. Yes. And failing in a sense of like doing the research, presenting in a way and still getting a no 

Interviewer [00:47:07] right, taking the risk in that. Having it not work, that's got to be really hard to assess. 

Carla Laroche [00:47:13] And one of my assignments that I started, I thought about before the pandemic, but a during the pandemic is a self-care assignment where you're required to do a certain amount of hours in order to get imposed by the ABA in order to get your degree. And at FSU is on average 20 hours a week on the clinic. And so the assignment and I like this part I required was like and certain students didn't listen to me and I'm like, What are you doing? It was you take three hours and do absolutely nothing related to the clinic. 

Interviewer [00:47:45] That's amazing. 

Carla Laroche [00:47:46] And tell me how that helped your mental health and your self-care. A couple of my students, like I said, decided to like they were like the reason why I took like, did this research for this case because it'll make me feel less stressed. And I was like, Oh, tell me, are you less stressed now? Like, No, the work keeps coming up. Yeah, I know. So are you going to do this again when I sign this right? And then they did, and they're like, Wow, this was actually really helpful. I got to talk to this person who haven't spoken to you in a while. I just took a walk. I played with my pets. I would be lovely to be able to impose or assign this task regularly. But my goal is for them to appreciate how taking time for yourself makes you a better lawyer because you can't help others if you are not in a headspace to do so to help yourself. 

Interviewer [00:48:35] What are your thoughts on talk therapy or mindfulness practices like meditation or yoga when it comes to dealing with the stress of this work? 

Carla Laroche [00:48:45] I will answer in a roundabout way. I used to have and I still do have a class on imposter syndrome syndrome and the navigation of different fields, newness feeling because of different identities like as if you don't belong or you don't deserve what you have rightfully accomplished. And then there was an article that came out maybe a year ago that said Stop telling women that they're suffering from imposter syndrome. And it was a good point. And women and people of color. And it was a good point about how systemic issues systemic the just the way that the United States is and discriminatory nature of our profession. By imposing this imposter syndrome, we're saying it's the person when it's really the systems that are working on the person. And so to answer your question, it's like we need both. We need to ensure that our students and people generally have the skills to navigate this world. But we're only doing a little bit for that one person as opposed to. And again, I support therapy mindfulness that is that's just necessary for us to survive right now. Well, always. But like, especially right now during a pandemic and all that's going on. But if we're simply just saying, OK, you person who have just come into this profession, here are some skills to survive without also saying we need to change the system. So your centers not only survival, but yeah, it's both. 

Interviewer [00:50:17] That's such a powerful point. Is there anything that you wanted to mention or talk about today that we haven't addressed? 

Carla Laroche [00:50:27] I will say that I have really dedicated my life except for one stint in the law firm for like a couple of months. It was like nine months and I was like, OK, back to social justice issues. People don't have to do what I do in order to make a change and a valid change. Again, not a performative showing. If the only thing that one is willing to do in that space or in this current space is to say they will learn about trauma, learn about racial justice, learn about how they can make this country. I will limit to this country right now. Safer for all is to read about it than read about it. Well, read about it with dedication. And then once you've done that, go to the next step. We all don't have to make this our full time job in order to make real, lasting change and have fun doing it. Have these conversations with people. First, learn the material before having these conversations. Also a caveat there are times when I won't do this in class, but in conversations I will tell somebody, please look that up because I don't have the energy to teach you. Because I'm going through it. And you have the privilege of learning it. So please do that work before going into a space thinking that you know it all. Let those who have been directly impacted lead the conversation. But I believe with what Alison has said to me, simply lead with love and not only love for those around you and those who you might be able to identify with, but those who you have no idea their history. And so imposing your judgment simply because of what they look like or what they've done ignores their own traumatic experiences, their own navigation of this world that can be so hard. So thank you. 

Interviewer [00:52:32] Thanks for talking with us today, Carla. Thank you so much. 

Carla Laroche [00:52:36] Thank you. 

Interviewer [00:52:37] Trauma injustice is created by Alison DeBelder and Chris Moser and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. To help us out, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a star rating and review us on Apple Podcasts and share with others who might be interested.