We just don't admit these kind of things go on. - Jonathan Harriford

Chris and Alison sit down with Jonathan Harriford to discuss his experiences with a loved one who lives with a chronic mental illness and his involvement with the justice system (both civil and criminal).   

For a list of the Department of Children and Families resources related to the Baker Act you can visit their website.

For information about a patient's rights under the Baker Act you can visit the website of Disability Rights Florida - they have both written and video resources.

For information about schizophrenia you can visit 

• the American Psychiatric Association website
• the National Institute of Mental Health website
• the National Alliance on Mental Illness website

These conversations are not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse, and incarceration.

Transcript

Harriford_Transcript.mp3

Chris Moser [00:00:04] This is trauma and justice. This is a podcast about the ways that people confront and manage trauma in the justice system. These conversations touch on seriously troubling topics. This podcast is not appropriate for children. People with their own traumatic histories should be aware that we discuss violent crimes, exploitation, sexual trauma, child abuse and incarceration. 

Alison DeBelder [00:00:32] I'm Alison DeBelder 

Chris Moser [00:00:34] and I'm Chris Moser. Our guest today is Jonathan Harriford. Jonathan grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, for most of his childhood before joining the military while on active duty. Jonathan was thrown into a family tragedy here in Jacksonville, Florida, involving the criminal justice and mental health systems. Jonathan took the initiative to become his younger brother's legal guardian. His brother, Sean, is severely mentally ill, has learning disabilities and is a vulnerable adult. His brother was Baker, acted 92 times from 2005 to 2014 in Northeast Florida and is currently assigned to care in the Florida State Mental Health Hospital System in the capacity as a plenary guardian. Jonathan has assisted over 70 multidisciplinary treatment recovery team meetings to date. Jonathan and I met through Alison DeBelder a couple of years ago and had been talking about the criminal aspects of his brother's case, and my wrongful convictions class at Flagler is going to be taking on an aspect of the pulling together and timeline and social history of basically how we've got to this place. So welcome, Jonathan. Thank you for being here. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:01:58] Oh, thank you, Chris, and thank you Alison for having me. 

Chris Moser [00:02:00] So what's the age difference between you and your brother? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:02:04] I'm five years older than my brother, Sean. We were both born actually in Scotland. My father was in the Navy. He traveled about during that timeframe, so we were mostly home based in Scotland with my mom and her family over there. I was born there, I lived there till I was eight, all my Deb gas station and Mayport here in Jacksonville, Florida, so that's when we pretty much uprooted from Europe and we moved over here to America. So Sean was just to two and a half years old. 

Chris Moser [00:02:34] And I know that you were also a child just a couple of years older, so some of these things you probably weren't aware of, but we talk a lot about brain injuries and things like that. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:02:45] Right? 

Chris Moser [00:02:46] Growing up, were you aware of any of those problems with Sean? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:02:51] A little bit. As I was progressing through my academic career through middle school and high school like I was in honors and advanced classes. We'd be doing homework together and just struggling. And I think he had a report on the elementary grades like maybe third grade. He had a repeat. He wasn't up to the bar of the academic standard. Obviously, I didn't know the extent of his learning disabilities and just what he was struggling with academically. I was in the delayed entry program my whole senior year in high school, so I was technically 17 when I signed up, but I didn't go to boot camp till right after high school graduation. 

Chris Moser [00:03:26] How often were you able to keep in touch with your family when you were in service during this time? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:03:34] Send money home to my mom and father. My basic military training was here on the East Coast, and then I got stationed in Hawaii, so just try to phone call at least once a week and that kind of thing. Write letters to and from send postcards. I don't even know if people still do that. When I was out in Hawaii, I started really understanding had some academic troubles and I was actually trying to come up with a plan of I would take, leave and come and sit with him in school. I was going to try to coordinate like me just a couple of weeks. It's like sitting in the back of his class, and I'm a kind of a get anything done by all means kind of guy thinking outside the box. And that's just the military part of me. But they didn't just come to fruition. My father didn't plan well even before I joined the military or we were homeless for a bit. My junior senior year in high school and lived off of motels and on the expressway. So just a lot of financial issues and then physical and emotional issues. 

Chris Moser [00:04:27] Were you shielded from the why of what was going on? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:04:32] I didn't really know the why at the time, but before my mom passed, I really got to ask her some of these good questions and understand, and a lot of it was financially driven. But yeah, we moved quite a bit. There was eviction notices, and I think my dad might have blamed some stuff on Shawn. And, you know, 

Chris Moser [00:04:48] and at some point your parents were divorced, you recall what year that was. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:04:53] Yeah, that was actually December of 2013. It was the last ten months of my mom's life, she was actually divorced from my father after 35 years. Wow, OK. Yeah, it was a lot, a lot of issues there. 

Chris Moser [00:05:12] You mentioned that you wanted to do some tutoring and these situational things happened and that kind of prevented you, and you were understandably so probably more focused on the financial aspects of supporting and help supporting your family as a young man. When was the next time that you remember observing personally anything that troubled you regarding Sean's behavior? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:05:37] I got married in 2003. There's still academic issues in the family dynamic was very hard for him, kind of. I was I was trying to come home just with the the household where my father really. It wasn't until somewhere in 2005 2006, when he started having his first suicide attempts and ideations is when I got extremely concerned and I was stationed in Pensacola, Florida, during that time frame. 

Chris Moser [00:06:04] And around 2005, 2006, Sean was about 19, is that right? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:06:11] Well, yeah, 18, 19 years old. 

Chris Moser [00:06:14] That's usually typically the onset of some mental health diagnoses, such as schizophrenia. Are you aware of when Sean's first formal diagnosis occurred and where it occurred? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:06:30] As far as my memory recall, that would that a mental health facility here in Jacksonville. I think it's called River Point Behavioral Health now. Before that, it was 10 Brooke. And then in the 90s, a long, long time ago, charter by the sea. And it was a lot of, Hey, if you have problems with your teenager, bring them to us kind of thing. So based upon commercials, you know, my parents took him there and that was the beginning of a very, very interesting relationship with those facilities. 

Alison DeBelder [00:07:06] Can you explain your understanding of what the Baker Act is and how it is applied 

Jonathan Harriford [00:07:11] for a Baker act? Normally it's generated by the police. I would call the police for somebody that's psychotic and they're demonstrating behavior that could be a danger to themselves or others. So normally, law enforcement would come out either arrest that person or most likely take them to a thing. It's supposed to be the closest Baker Act facility, but to have them for a psychiatric evaluation. And a baker act here in the state of Florida, it's pretty much like a three days of a person inpatient to a place for a thing, its evaluation. And then based upon that evaluation, they do a multiple factors, including checking your insurance, which I find is interesting. And then they'll make a determination if they can help you, if they've got the bed space to help you, if you've got insurance that kind of covers you for a longer period of time. But in my research, there's actually a second part of the law that gets overlooked. A lot is if upon evaluation that person needs a higher level of care, that they should be automatically generating a civil commitment package, the state hospitals. Meaning you shouldn't just be throwing these individuals that are severely mentally ill out on the streets. But we kind of overlook that, and I don't know if that's because there no bed spaces in the state hospital or if we're kind of focused more of those kind of being the forensic kind of bed spaces because we're trying to keep the judicial system moving with competency restoration. But regardless, there's not enough care available in our local area. So first 72 hours, the person's evaluated and then coming out of that most of the time. A lot of people are released and that's kind of what my understanding of Baker Act is, and I know that people can stay longer. Basically, there's a discharge criteria set forth, and I think it's in a Florida administrative code. They kind of tells you what is a discharging conditions to where somebody can be released because a baker act too. We can't. We kind of lose track of this too. It's a deprivation of somebody's rights. And I know for a lot of people I've talked to, it's we're kind of scared to kind of do that of like, Oh, I'm going take some of these rights away. It's depend on the situation, but it's a danger to self and others is kind of what our society deems as that checking the box of Yes, you should be Baker Act and if you appear to be a danger to self and others. 

Chris Moser [00:09:33] So 91 times as I think an extraordinary number of times for anyone to be baker acted. And most of these instances are attached to low level arrests like trespassing and things like that. Some might not be attached to any arrest. Right? But can you kind of walk us through the beginning of the revolving door of him being admitted and released some examples that stick out in your mind, either duration of stay or particular events that happened in facilities? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:10:12] Yeah. Now at this point, I've done so much research because obviously going through this, you don't know what you don't know. Back then, I took a very good home video of my brother in a psychotic state. He didn't even recognize me in front of him. He's hallucinating, seeing things that are attacking him. And that was how we saw him when he was out. I'll say out of a baker facility, but when he'd be on the streets, but he wouldn't be on the streets for too long before you get, Baker acted again. So going all the way back, there are some instances that stick out in my mind of just the relationship between mental health. Baker acts in like a criminal charge. For instance, he was hearing voices and talking to a VCR. At one point, and in order to get the VCR out because it was a demon, he placed it outside the apartment of my mother and my father. Well, my dad came home and saw the VCR was gone, and apparently somebody had picked it up and stole it. But my dad blamed my brother and then my brother got a charge for theft. That sticks out so much to me, because it's like if somebody with some common sense could intervene and say, Hey, this guy to instill a VCR and he's having a psychotic episode in his mind, the VCR is a demon talking to him to kill himself and poke out his eyes. And these are the things that really go on in the community. But we don't get any help from the police because that's what you're told to reach out to the police. And I mean, there's so many vivid examples as time has gone on about that of just the misunderstanding and the miscommunication of we want to criminalize a medical condition, essentially, but we're not really giving that person help. So they may get Baker acted until they quote unquote are deemed discharge worthy, whatever that means, because it didn't happen in my brother's case. Coming out of insurance, which is a predominant issue that I've noticed here, but yeah, you get Baker acted in relief, then picked up again. Baker acted and released. 

Chris Moser [00:12:17] The basic element of a grand theft is the intent to deprive someone of their property. And so the intent issue, or the motivating factor that you described doesn't really seem to line up with that. And offhand, I don't know what the resolution in that particular case was, but I'm assuming there were a lot of negotiated plea agreements, quote unquote, where he would resolve cases for smaller amounts of time, not prison. Can you speak to some of the things that you remember, some of the stays in the county jail and or the Baker Act facilities? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:12:56] Yeah, that's something that is so interesting to me just in as we talk about competency and capacity in these kind of terms that are more legal in nature, but it still doesn't detract from the person's medical condition of how anybody that is actively psychotic hearing voices that tell them to do things that can actually enter a plea or can do these things. But other voices or good voices, you know that you have heard public defenders tell me in hearings or heard this or that. As far as, don't worry, you still hearing voices, it's OK. Those are really good voices. But how how does that register as somebody to have competency to make a plea? And that VCR incident I described, I think there he was sent to the facility Gainesville North Florida Evaluation Treatment Center for quote unquote treatment. For about nine months to a year. Then once that treatment was approved and quote unquote was restored to whatever competency they determined well, upon release he was Baker acted again within three days. And then the loop just kept on continuing. Which was very interesting to me, because according to the records, he was nowhere near, you know, still very psychotic. 

Chris Moser [00:14:09] Jumping back to the recording that you reference and we can post this on social media and Schindler had done a story a few years ago, is that the same recording that you were talking about? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:14:21] Yeah, the one that I'm talking about, yes. 

Chris Moser [00:14:24] Do you recall about how much time elapsed from the time you took that recording to his release date from a facility at that point in time 

Jonathan Harriford [00:14:34] as a family member, let alone a guardian, but just as a regular concerned blood relative, you don't get to know anything because you know they hold the release of information against you. So it took me years to really figure out that answer to that. That particular day I called law enforcement to try to see about a baker act was I was still very naive and new to this whole system. I was on active duty and I was just well, he clearly needs help. How do we accomplish the basics? So I would argue with the officer to even Baker act him and tried to show that the purpose taking the video was to say, Hey, look, this guy clearly needs some good psychiatric help. It was Baker sort of facility, I didn't get a phone call or a notification, or I didn't even get to communicate with the facility at all. And I didn't see my brother again for like another week or two. That's what we really have is a system of. They disappear. These mentally ill individuals disappear for a while and then the families were stuck because we don't get to know anything. And then, heaven forbid, the actual psychotic patient doesn't sign a release. Good luck trying to find out anything. It kind of ties into, for me, another vivid memory of when I was going to visit my mother off of in Jacksonville, off of a major freeway 9B, I think at the time and a Thor some guy ended up being my brother, but using a bedsheet naked on a bed sheet and I had stopped coming off 9B to turn left on the monument. And I looked and I was looking at this guy very hard and oh, my God is my brother. He had long, long hair can even recognize him. So at the time, I whipped back around to try to see him and talk to him. He was already gone. But then when you line up those records, he had just been released from a medical psychiatric facility naked in a bed sheet. I mean, that's just it's so, so terrible. But those are the things that he had to deal with, and I learned a lot more through police reports about his life and medical records. What happened to my family could have been prevented, but it's just that we lose. These kind of connections of the reality of law enforcement sees one thing the courtroom sees one thing in these hospitals. They put out whatever information they put out and as families kind of left in the dark and were the ones that really need the help for our loved one, obviously. 

Chris Moser [00:16:59] At some point, were you attempting or are you aware of any hospitals were also attempting at different times to essentially incapacitate your brother into a facility long term? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:17:15] So there's different levels of guardianship. Culinary Guardian is the highest level that they have in the state of Florida. Basically, the person that he's my ward, there's terminology like most of the time we hear ward of the state or, you know, somebody, the ward. But he is still my ward. He doesn't have capacity to do a lot of things or certain things defined by law that he cannot do, and therefore it falls under me, like signing for medications. The whole concept, there's different levels. You get assigned a different level of guardianship from either guardian, guardian advocate, plenary guardian based upon that individual's needs. And the whole goal is to eventually get proper treatment. So that way they don't need a guardian to live a full life. But it didn't happen in the case of my brother. There are facilities that did actually start off a process to have a civil commitment package completed, and I think that gets turned in downtown and within the courthouse to for review. And then I'm assuming, based on my knowledge at this point, there be a court order cut putting that person to like a civil commitment, stating they need higher level care that the community can't provide. It wasn't till years later getting access to records when I found that a facility in Jacksonville started that process, but immediately withdrew paperwork once they abused and beat my brother inside their psychiatric unit. 

Chris Moser [00:18:39] Well, did they withdraw that effort when that event actually happened, or did the effort get withdrawn when you learned about it and went to the media to discuss it? And then can you also just explain how you became aware and what you did as an individual kind of trying to figure out all of these things essentially on your own? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:19:05] So going chronologically, there was a hospital here in Jacksonville that had a psychiatric unit. They had reached out to me. Basically, if somebody is psychotic and they have deemed that they cannot make medical decisions for themselves or what, I a lot in medical records patient unable to sign if that person that a psychotic and state, yes, I would like my father or my mother, my brother to help in my care while I'm here. They have the patient fill these forms out. We were trying to do that. Having me involved a little bit while I was on active duty and I didn't know that there was an incident involving staff and my brother at this facility where they beat him and it was upon them beating my brother, abusing him, which I later on got video footage from a nurse who was kind enough to tell me about the situation. It was a big advocate of our family. It was just really horrific to see you line up timewise, the beating and the abuse. And then they waited a week to tell the abuse investigators. But they don't have to justify pulling back paperwork stating that somebody needs higher level care. There's no checks and balances in the judicial process for that. So it's just very interesting to me that we can file all these motions and do all these things to this person needs higher level care, but it gets lost. So let's just pull back the emotion. I don't know how that works legally, but it was interesting to see that there was no justification. Oh, he's going to another place or he's moving to another state or A. There was nothing. It was just right after the abuse for that. 

Chris Moser [00:20:38] There was an incident at this facility where your brother was physically. What happened to him physically? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:20:49] Still, like when I'm in the moment, it's still kind of emotional, so I'll try to stay on point. But from what I could gather, he was asking for some water coming out of his room, at which time some male staff decided to tell him verbally to get back into his room. I think my brother reiterated he would like some more water. And at that point in time, staff never put his hands on my brother and threw him back into his room. My brother came back, I was Rome trying to get some more water, and they just continued to beat him, chase him down the hallway, and then they took his head and they bashed his head up against a wall and up against the floor. For several minutes, they were beating him. Two people were beating him. And then a bunch of other nurses and some other people came in to kind of break it up, but they beat them and they saw stuff, I'm sorry. 

Chris Moser [00:21:47] Now it's OK, is what you're describing captured in the video that was shared with you. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:21:53] It was, and it is, yes. 

Chris Moser [00:21:55] And what I'm focusing in on right now is the head injury aspects because this happened prior to your mother's death. Correct? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:22:03] Correct. 

Chris Moser [00:22:04] To your knowledge, Jonathan, was Shawn ever given an MRI for that head injury? Do we know the extent of it? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:22:13] No. 

Chris Moser [00:22:14] Do we know if he was taken to get any assistance after that event occurred? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:22:20] I can't see anywhere where he was properly medically treated for any of the injuries that happened to him on that incident, so it's very tough to see at this stage and I'm still trying to get those kind of scans and stuff done. Personally, I think it would provide insight and rule out things for his medical treatment. But going back real quick, so I didn't know any of that took place while my mom was alive and I would go to different Bacharach facilities or the jail to see my brother. My mom always wanted to see him, so I would always go first and just to see what kind of if he was completely psychotic and couldn't stand still. I didn't want her to see him in that condition. Most of the times where she saw him, he was just heavily, heavily drug to where he was drooling out of the mouth. And it was very sad in general. And her and I talked a lot about that and just about getting him proper help because it's just not something that we've experienced here and in our community. I did go to the same facility that ended up beating him, not knowing that they did anything, and my brother had a black eye, huge black eye. And I remember sitting there and I didn't know it at the time, but one of the people that assaulted him was overseeing our visitation sat right next to me. Because these visitations have to be supervised. Now, I don't know if that was like on purpose thing at the exact time of the day in the scheduling, but thinking back, I was like so disgusted that how can this guy be allowed to be in proximity with my brother? But he was actually the supervisor of our visitation. And when I asked my brother, You know, Hey, what's up, man, you got this black guy, because a lot of these things too for abuse the patients who take the blame. Oh, I hit myself. You know, I would just wasn't feeling good. I hit myself. There's nothing going on. I think we all have this gut feeling when something's not right. It was just something that I just wouldn't push the issue, and my brother was like, I hate myself. You know, it's just it's almost like they're conditioned to see these responses, but I mean, the abuser and assaulter is sitting right there. 

Chris Moser [00:24:34] Just for clarification, the individuals on the video that are employed in these facilities to take care of the mentally ill. Was there an investigation? Were any arrests made? Can you speak about that? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:24:50] As far as my knowledge goes, there was a week waiting period. I'm assuming they had a kind of go on damage control, but before they reported it to the abuse hotline with Department of Children Families. And believe it or not, even though I had a video, the abuse investigators did not look at the video. There are some issues there in following proper procedures because that should have generated a referral to law enforcement. There's no referral in that case. And from what I gather, they just said, OK, the patient understands. And that was it, because what happened was immediately after that abuse, their just kicked my brother out of the facility, and it was kind of like circle the wagons kind of thing from what has been explained to me. 

Chris Moser [00:25:34] About how much time elapsed, Jonathan, from that release in that facility to your mother's death. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:25:43] Approximately six months 

Chris Moser [00:25:45] in the six months leading up to what had occurred? Did you take steps to again without the awareness of this abuse? You just knew what you knew. Did you try to take steps to have him committed and were they successful? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:26:03] So going back to that example, I told you earlier about the bed sheet and seeing my brother off the side of the road. That was actually the month my mother died. It was at the beginning of October of 2014, and the next day I went downtown to the courthouse, there's a mental health, I guess, department room area. 

Chris Moser [00:26:23] Go ahead. The next day after seeing your brother in the sheet naked? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:26:28] Yes, yes. So I was like, still on active duty. I didn't know much, but I know I needed to be involved in some way because obviously, after all these years, things aren't improving. So I go down the courthouse. They tell you we cannot provide legal advice, but you can have him. Baker act it again, still new to the terminology and what means what, but an ex parte order. It was my understanding that the ex parte order would be good for 10 days, so I sat down with the clerk. We filled out the paperwork. I think the judge signed it the next day. The problem was they couldn't find my brother to serve him the ex-parte order because it's a legal process. My brother was actually Baker acted again. He was actually inside Baker facility that had a law enforcement official in that building. So there's no kind of registry of, Hey, this person's in our care. 

Chris Moser [00:27:18] Well, if he had a warrant out for his arrest, I wonder if they would have picked that up. Just for clarification, there was a order signed by the judge to pick him up to be Baker acted. Your brother is homeless transient in a mental health crisis. His baker acted subsequently. No one's talking to the courthouse and they keep him for a small amount of time and release him. Is that what you said? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:27:51] Yeah. So it was it was very interesting to go chronologically like in real time. So just think of my brother is actually he got picked up. So between me going to the courthouse, he was actually picked up and Baker acted, and I don't know any of that. So he's in a facility, I don't know. So I'm doing my thing at the courthouse trying to figure out how I could be involved. So for the next 10 days, I'm like, We've got to find him. We got to find him. So I'm driving around Jacksonville at homeless spots to one two three in the morning looking for him. So then I can therefore call the Sheriff's Office to deliver this thing to him so I can get a baker acted. And then within that Baker act, talk to the facility to say, Hey, what can we do? I need to be involved. I need to be his guardian, and he needs a higher level of care. So what's a civil commitment package look like, like kind of walk the dog on that process? He gets Baker acted and released during that 10 day stretch. They find him. The police find him. The sheriff's office to serve him. My ex parte order, he gets served the ex parte order and taken to a mental health facility for evaluation under a baker act. Now here's the awesome thing about all this work I did. I don't get to know anything about the process. The sheriff's office, just the stamp the court order says yes, we found and we delivered this to him. We can't tell you where we took him to. We can't tell you what administrator you need to talk to to communicate these things. We can't tell you anything. No release of information. So I don't know. He had been Baker acted and served. So here I am thinking, OK, awesome. I just know I followed up the courthouse every day. OK, yes, Johnson, they served him. Where is he? Can't tell you that. Hoping that somebody would reach out to me for three weeks. I don't know. Anything's going on in his life. I'm living my life about to retire from the Marines, and then I get that call on the day my mom dies. When I find out he's involved is because the sheriff's office is talking to the media. So a month before all of this, so we're talking September. My brother was Baker acted in relief so frequently it was like every couple of days the apartment complex where my mother lived actually threatened my mom with eviction. There is a huge disconnect in understanding mental illness from every aspect, whether it's community, law enforcement, even the experts in the mental health field, as far as each individualized person and their own mental illness and struggles. So for example, my brother was psychotic, and this is truly heartbreaking when you see it from my context of how much my brother and my mother loved each other and it was reciprocated. My brother would draw paintings and leave them by my mother's front door. He was always trying to get back to her, but the apartment complex didn't understand. So they were thinking if they evict my mom, my brother wouldn't show up around there, but not knowing that before my brother's psychosis, that was probably the last imagery of home that he had. So my mother was crying because she didn't know what to do. She worked at Publix as a cashier at that point she'd been divorced from my father is just her in the small apartment. 

Chris Moser [00:31:05] And did she drive to work? How did she get to work every day? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:31:09] No, no. My mother was very kind of old school like in Europe, and I didn't quite understand Thor. I went back a few years ago as an adult in Europe. Everybody walks everywhere. They take the actual rails of the trains and stuff. So it was just something she was interested in and she liked to walk. And, you know, she had friends that would either pick her up and take her in taxis and stuff like that. But it just she didn't drive. She worked like a mile away from her apartment, so it was just a mile walk. Thinking back now, I love those times I had her in my car. I finally got her to get a cell phone, one of the old flip phones, and said, Mom, just call me, I'll pick you up. You know, I love that time, but just for those five to ten minutes, I would have her in my car and just share life with her. I'm glad to have those memories. But yeah, it was just very hard to see the apartment complex just treat her in that fashion because that was their thought process to get rid of Sean. We are we are not very truthful about people's psychosis. I try to explain this as easily as I can my brother in his world. He thought he was whatever, like a spy or whatever when he's psychotic. 

Chris Moser [00:32:17] Fighting al Qaeda, I think. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:32:19] Right, right, right. Fighting al Qaeda in whatever capacity that is. If he's setting fires. Maybe he's doing that on his top secret spy mission. But that's somebody's psychosis that we don't want to admit. So a lot of these things get misinterpreted for violence or this or that. What drove me to go start this process was, for one, his safety. You know, you see somebody you love that's naked in public. Well, that's a concern. And then my mom's issues going on with the apartment complex, not understanding and threatening. So I was like, look, my knowledge base education level from the military, I can at least get my brother somewhere that's going to provide effective help and get my mother squared away, where she doesn't have to worry about the stress of having an apartment complex come down on her and all of these things. 

Alison DeBelder [00:33:10] I just want to ask a few clarifying questions. What is Sean's diagnosis? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:33:17] Paranoid schizophrenia? 

Alison DeBelder [00:33:19] I know that you're you're not a doctor. You're not a lawyer. Can you explain for our listeners what paranoid schizophrenia means? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:33:29] It is a very troubling and hard disorder to me. The easiest way I relate it as a family member is the person is just not in our reality is the easiest way. I use my brother as the example of how he sees people that some people are alive as far as actually physically alive, just live in different parts of the world. But some people are dead. But it doesn't matter in his world. He can have conversations with those people in the room where he is at. 

Alison DeBelder [00:34:02] So you're saying he actually sees and hears things that other people cannot, but they're very real to him? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:34:09] Absolutely. 

Alison DeBelder [00:34:10] You mentioned paranoid schizophrenia. What does that mean? What does it mean that Shaun is paranoid? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:34:18] The paranoia aspect of things are always out to get him, or people are out to get him. And I can kind of get deep with my thoughts on these kind of subjects. But given the abuse he suffered too, it's not too far fetched. You know, and that's something that I've noticed, even as a case manager, that these individuals that suffer this kind of paranoia. There may be some legitimacy of why and if we get into it all about the abuses that he has suffered, there is quite a bit of bullying and harassment. So people that are competent that understand the differences in those, we can decipher that. But individuals with severe mental illness, they don't understand that or he like he doesn't understand like what's the difference between being completely bullied all the time? And he may perceive that to be paranoia, but that is what his life has been, that people are out to get him. And it's kind of accurate, honestly. 

Alison DeBelder [00:35:12] Right. So these folks who are similarly situated to your brother are really particularly vulnerable because there's a reason, a baked and reason to say you should dismiss their complaints, you should dismiss their fears because it can be explained away as a symptom. Right. And sometimes, perhaps it is. And sometimes, perhaps it isn't. But that makes them truly vulnerable. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:35:38] Absolutely. 

Alison DeBelder [00:35:40] You have mentioned Sean being psychotic. What do you mean when you say psychosis or psychotic 

Jonathan Harriford [00:35:48] seeing and hearing things that aren't? They're reacting to things that aren't there and in whatever manner, whether that scared or trying to defend himself, like in that home video is so accurate and I'm very glad to have them. For one, that memory is only one of few that I have with my mother actually moving. So it's very tough. My mom, we weren't into like videos and my mom didn't like taking pictures as she got older. Even that small frame of having my mother walk behind them like it means so much that that video is so just precious to me just to see her move. And he doesn't register like she does no situational awareness. He has no idea that I'm even filming him in front of him, and he is so far gone is what I mean. Like that, as in his psychotic state of whatever it is that he is seeing, he is feeling endangered. He is feeling that that is a danger to his own physical reality and he is physically in our world. But what he is seeing and hearing is a danger to him. And that's something that gets lost. 

Alison DeBelder [00:36:53] Since he's been diagnosed. Have you ever known Sean's treatment that he's received at any point to control his illness? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:37:05] Well, no, no. 

Alison DeBelder [00:37:09] What's the best that he looks like, because I understand that there are definitely people living with schizophrenia who are well controlled under medication and treatment to the point where they can hold a job and live independently or with some support? Has he ever been able to live independently or hold a job? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:37:28] So unfortunately, no. We have to acknowledge that medications don't work for all people. Why do we keep going down the road? That doesn't work for I think sixteen years now, he's heavily sedated. I mean, he's not bouncing off the walls like running back and forth, but he still lives in a different reality. I think at this stage, it's more of a cookie cutter approach to mental health care. Sometimes there's individuals that don't fit within that mold, and we just want to force them into that mold. And to me, that's very indicative of how we get to 90 to baker acts. Besides the abuse and kicking people out kind of thing. But if we're approaching it from more of a medical standpoint of there's so much more that needs to be done, and either people don't want spend the money and resources to do it or they just don't care, and there's a lot of egos in that field. The problem is with that is we want to kind of produce a narrative or we just want to impart what we want on a situation. But nobody besides, you know what we're doing right now and a few other news stories. Nobody's really sat down to get the full picture, and I think that gets lost. I know what my family went through while my mom was alive. I know the abuses of my brother suffered while my mom was alive, and I know what my mom went through emotionally and I know what I went through emotionally with her and with my brother. And this is just not from my family's story. There's so many other families that have reached out to me through the years, and it's the same stuff. It's like the elephant in the room, and I refer to my brother right now as he's the secret in the closet. Because we don't want to admit, I don't know if that's a societal thing. We just don't admit these kind of things go on, but then we don't want to admit that we messed up or there's other ways to approach this situation than just purely looking at his evil person. 

Alison DeBelder [00:39:24] I want to turn now to your mom's death, was that in 2014? Am I right about that? Yes. Can you describe for us the telephone call when you found out that your mom had died? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:39:41] At that time, I was on recruiting, doing for the Marine Corps and worked at the military entrance processing station was where that everybody that's going to join the military goes for physical examinations, testing and basically we ship them out to boot camp, making sure paperwork is correct and contracts and stuff like that. So at that point in time, I was working the morning I was going to go handle my own personal medical issues and kind of getting ready to retire. I had swung by the apartment complex of where that agency had recommended they owned another property, wanted to check it out for my mother. So I go, check it out. I thought the lady said, Awesome, I want to bring my mother by. Check it out. See, see what she thinks left that conversation and I was heading back to work. So this is around one o'clock in the afternoon to get back to work, and I'm sitting down at my desk and I open up and start doing my paperwork and my wife calls me. My wife is frantic and we just know one of my mother's coworkers called my wife from my mom's flip phone that I got. So it's just by coincidence that I even got contacted because I don't even want to think if I didn't get contacted at all through this whole process. What was kind of relayed to my wife, she was leaving her work, which she worked like five minutes away at that point in time from my mother's apartment was that my mom was having some sort of a stroke or something. So that was I don't know where that came from, but that was kind of the information that I remember initially having. So I looked over at my coworker and said, Hey, you got the office right now. I've got to handle something with my mom. And I mean, I ran out of the office because here I am. I'm in military uniform thinking, I'm going to try to get there, perform CPR on my mom, whatever's going on to save her life. So I. Drive at a decent pace. I doubt JTB to Monument Road with my hazard lights on, and at the time I didn't know. But later on I learned the sheriff's office was kind of watching me and letting me go to the scene in. And this is how crazy life is in this day and age enroute. I get a phone call coming in over my Bluetooth. And it was my mother's manager from Publix. So here I am thinking I'm going to go to save my mom's life. And I talk to this guy on my Bluetooth and he's like, I'm so sorry for your loss. And I go, What are you talking about? Is like your mom? She she died. And I'm like, What are you talking about? I'm on my way to save her right now. What are you talking about? And he was like, You don't know. I'm like, What are you talking about? I said, I can't talk to you right now. I'm on my way to save my mom. And then also, my phone blows up because people are posting on Facebook already. Sorry for your loss, Jonathan. And I'm like, OK, whatever, I'm just let me get to the scene and assess the scene. So I get there and it is just like the worst horror movie I've ever seen. As, like, I've never seen anything like this with the tape, with the police tape and the police vehicles everywhere. And I pull up right in front of the complex, put my car in park and I'm just jumping out of the vehicle like, where's my mom? I'm CPR certified. And, you know, I just couldn't put everything together yet that the EMT were already there. Just it was there. I didn't. I didn't, you know, I was just like, Where's my mom? I need a favor kind of mindset. So I get there and it's like, Well, who are you? I'm like, It's my mom. I'm her son. And he's like, Hey, the media is here, you're in uniform. And I'm like, I really don't care. But I had some old gym clothes in my car and figured it'd probably be best if I change real quick. So. Still, just trying to process, let me see my mom. Maybe she's in the back of the ambulance or something, right? So I change. I calm myself down. 

Alison DeBelder [00:43:37] I'm sorry to interrupt, but I don't understand that part. They didn't want you to come in and see your mom in uniform. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:43:43] No. So there's kind of weird, interesting things when you're in the military of like being on camera in uniform, and there's all sorts of things. But I've always been very respectful of my time in service. And, you know, my military command didn't know anything about this at this point in time, either. So the worst thing that could possibly happen for us is like, Oh, who is? Why is Johnson in the news in his uniform? And that kind of stuff does get reported, by the way, to your chain of command. So for something like this is just one of those things, and it's a professional kind of like culture kind of thing. 

Alison DeBelder [00:44:14] I see you didn't want to be representing the military on in front of cameras, so you changed clothes. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:44:20] Yeah, yeah. It's just one of those things so quickly change into some old gym clothes I had in my car. Whatever I then taught to an officer, Hey, what's going on? Let me see my mom and he's like, You can't see her right now. Nobody's told me anything. I'm sitting here literally on the curb across from the tape waiting for somebody to talk to me. My coworker starts calling a check on me. My father and I are estranged when I decided out of courtesy to call him and to say, Hey, there's something going on here. He came over and we were just sitting there waiting and waiting. And then so you guys know the back story of the same people that threatened my mom's eviction. The same woman shows up in a golf cart, and I'm just like, What's going on? So it's like, I've got all these factors going on in real time. And then I see gesso talking to the news. Yeah, hey, we picked up the The Sun and the sun is out and I'm like, Who are they talking about? Because remember, in real time, I'm thinking, I did that ex-parte order weeks ago signs in a psychiatric bay correct place. He was the furthest thing from my mind of any involvement in this situation because again, I did the responsible thing. I got the Baker Act filed just so I picked him up. I don't get to know where he is, but hey, somebody eventually is going to call me right? So there was the longest day ever, and I was just like, Well, it's clearly not good if I haven't spoken to my mom in two hours, right? So I was just like, I'm putting myself in that mindset of she's probably died of a heart attack. Hours and hours go by and I mean hours and it's getting dark and still nothing. Nobody Thor to me. 

Alison DeBelder [00:46:01] And you're still outside her apartment. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:46:03] Oh yeah. I mean, I'm life like a marine on duty, right? I'm not leaving the scene till I know what's going on and I want to see my mom right. I want to see my mom and I didn't know at this point they'd already taken her body to the morgue and stuff. So where my mom's apartment was is right there at Regency across from Target. I don't know if you're familiar with that area, but there's a Jonas substation right there. And all these guys, some of the best guys that I've met that really looked out for my brother and my mom, and I just these two or three of these guys just come up and they're just fall and cry in tears in their eyes of police officers. Yes, yes. Just crying. And they're like, We're so sorry, Jonathan, that we're so sorry. And I'm like, I know because my mom died of a heart attack and they're like, No. What do you mean? It's like your brother is involved. We can't talk to you about it right now, and I'm like, What do you mean my brother is involved? Isn't Baker acted right? And I know he's involved. They have him downtown. Oh, my, oh shit, right? I was just it was so foreign of a concept to even put that together at that time. And I just cried because I didn't know what had happened, transpired and then I got a call around 11:00 o'clock that night. So I'd been there from one p.m. to now. It's 11 pm. I got a call. And this is my first involvement with law enforcement like heavy duty. Besides, you know, just saying hi to police and passing and and doing random stuff, and they're like, Hey, we need you to come downtown for a minute. And I'm like, What's that about? You know, like, well, we just need to come downtown to the office, OK? And I was met with the state attorney there. It was on the case and some of the other detectives. And I don't worry, we got it. We got the guy that did this and that kind of stuff. And I'm like, What are you talking about? And that's when they disclosed, We have your brother and I. That's it. That's all I get to know. Right? That was it. And I'm just I'm left to process all of this stuff in this short amount of time. The cops are still on the scene, so I drove back to my mom's apartment and I'm just still trying to process everything. And they leave like at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. And I mean, they had everything. I'd never had dealt with a crime scene before, so I didn't know the little markers. And, you know, I saw that stuff in college, but in real life applications, completely different when I just locked up my mom's apartment and I just cried and cried and cried. And that's how I was thrown into this situation. So somebody told me that there was going to be a J one hearing. I didn't even know what that was in a few hours. So I think I went home just to take a quick shower and put my clothes on. And then I was in Court J one the next morning, 

Alison DeBelder [00:48:41] and that's the first appearance court in Jacksonville. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:48:44] Yes. And then just to see the media circus because again, I was very oblivious. I would say for the first six months of all of this, I was oblivious to the news reports to anything that was going on in real time. I didn't know the sheriff's office would hold a formal interview or something. They did a formal thing downtown about the case. I didn't know any of that. I didn't get an invite to any of that either, by the way. But when I'm in day one, just see in the courtroom the media come in, they're trying to get a quick snippet of my brother and I'm like, What kind of vultures do this kind of stuff, you know? But it was reported down that he was just too psychotic to even transport to the J. One appearance. And upon hearing that I was just like, Well, I've got to see my brother. I've got to see him. I got lays eyes on him because again, I thought he was being Baker acted and we were going to get him have a higher level of care. So I go from the courtroom and J one to lobby of the jail, and I'm just who do I need to talk to to see my brother? Because again, I didn't know how it works. I didn't know there's only certain visitation days and all that other B.S., the red tape, I call it, of the system and stuff. But I was like, I need to see him and lay eyes on him. He's my brother, period. I don't care who I got to talk to. What I got to do, I need to see him. So I sat there for hours and hours, and I just when go away. And then at the time, there was an awesome person that was in charge of the jail, her name was Tara Wildes and I put in a request and I asked somebody to please send us up to the director. I just need five minutes to see him. That's it. Five minutes. So when I went up there, I got a chance to see him, and he was the probably the the worst psychotic state have ever seen him. I mean, he didn't even recognize me and it was just, that's kind of where it all started. 

Alison DeBelder [00:50:25] Was he speaking to you at that time? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:50:27] He was so psychotic he didn't recognize I was in his presence. He was speaking not to me. The two voices. 

Alison DeBelder [00:50:34] Do you remember what he was saying? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:50:36] Not really, because a lot of it was a lot of yelling and it was probably the worst psychotic imagery when somebody was very psychotic. There are a lot of yelling, fast paced, talking to themselves, making no sense. And I've always had a hard in myself when I see him as a human being because I don't want to see him or have him see me emotional or crying. I've always tried to protect that for him. I mean, when I left there, I just sat in my car and I cried so much because I just didn't understand how he could be in such a mental state like that. 

Alison DeBelder [00:51:11] At what point did you find out what had happened to your mom or what they thought had happened to your mom was that when you met with the detectives and the assistant state attorney? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:51:22] I didn't find out details for, say, I just it was like Sean's and Ball, you know, I didn't really find that stuff out till later. And again, coming from the military, I had no idea how any of this stuff works. It's not like I had a family lawyer or anybody. I'd started requesting information for myself and talking to the powers that be. 

Alison DeBelder [00:51:39] When you first met with them and they knew that it was your mom who had been killed, did they assign any sort of victim's advocate or counselor to you to act as a liaison about the process of what was happening? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:51:53] No, in what was crazy was I didn't even know that that was a thing until years later when I'm working in the system and I'm like, Well, I never got a victim. The person assigned to me and I didn't get this or added an application to fill out for victims compensation. 

Alison DeBelder [00:52:08] Have you ever had one assigned? No. As we sit here today, no. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:52:19] I remember from that time frame of how disgusting the media local media was 

Chris Moser [00:52:26] to get there first and to report it first at any cost because they want to, yeah, they want to be the ones to break the story first. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:52:36] I understand that now. But yeah, 

Chris Moser [00:52:39] that's been my experience as well and other kinds of cases. It's not about the investigative reporting that someone like and Schindler does. Yeah, it's let me get it first. Let me get the clicks and the likes. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:52:53] Oh man, by I really had to learn quickly. I humbled myself so much. I remember being in the car with my two kids who were young, young, but I mean knew at five o'clock he's been trying to kill his mom for years to an end. You know, I had to turn that crap off. This is we don't think about this stuff as a community, as we're reporting these things. And then like even with the sheriff's office, their press statement the next day, I mean, total inaccurate information about the amount of Baker acts, and I'll say real quick before we get back, was that what is public information? What is confidential information? I think there needs to be a level playing field when you come to that because I think they'd said they'd been baker like 18 times. Well, that's only if you look at one small public access record kind of thing. But you don't get his hospitalizations. You don't get the legal record at the hospitals. You don't you don't get the full picture. So already we're going in half half informed and it was very important for me to get the full scope and picture of all of this. So it was just very tough. But yeah, so I didn't like the way the news had initially reported that stuff. So I learned the I was driving to the morgue to identify my mom's body. And again, I didn't get clear directions where that was. But there's a hospital really close to the morgue off of whatever street that is Eighth Street, right? I just never forget pulling in there, and I get a call from one of the news channels of, Hey, would you like to to be on the news today about your mom's death? Know. Thank you very much. Have a nice day. How did you get this number kind of thing? So when I went to the morgue is when, you know, there's just there's so much that happens when somebody dies and then, you know, just it being in the news and is just so emotional and there's. It took me a while. It took me a long time. And then people on Facebook and, you know, just they run with whatever they want. And I didn't again, I didn't. I was so naive thinking back about just people running with comments and things. 

Alison DeBelder [00:54:45] What is your understanding of law enforcement's theory, of what happened to your mom and how she was killed? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:54:54] And so I'll just say from what I know about him is that it wasn't Arlington, Florida, it was Afghanistan or Iraq, and he was on a mission. And that's kind of at this point again, I know Chris and her class are going to kind of go a little bit more into things. But as I go back in time for that, it's kind of that was kind of what was his psychosis at that time. It is really hard to think about all of it at once. And I think we forget these individuals have mental illness at this level that don't get help. Their families are out here trying to get them help. There's no assessment of how they live their life in their psychosis. It's like. And as I've read through police reports, so many people pulled a gun on Shaun and could have easily killed him. Whether that was, he came walking up to them psychotic and asking for money or a psychotic, and they thought that they were going to get attacked by him. So I'm in the unique position of being a son to the victim in this situation, but then also the brother of the perpetrator or whatever Harry wanted to find it, but we could have easily been burying him for somebody shooting and probably was justified the way the law works these days. Well, they felt threatened and he was psychotic, mentally ill, man. So we just killed them to protect ourselves. But that's in there, too. 

Alison DeBelder [00:56:24] Yeah, yeah. We've talked around it a little bit and we've referenced it. But I just want to clarify that it's law enforcement's belief that your mom was murdered and that your brother Sean killed her. Is that right? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:56:40] Yes. 

Alison DeBelder [00:56:41] And do you know what their theory is about how she was killed? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:56:46] Go ahead, Chris. 

Chris Moser [00:56:47] Just the criminal defense lawyer was like the alleged allegation is that she was strangled to death. One aspect that we're going to look at is what, if any, evidence corroborates that claim. Outside of Sean talking or not talking to law enforcement? And specifically, is there any DNA sifting through any corroborating evidence that that could be true? Because the public defender's office, I believe, got the case because Sean's agent and from what I can gather, not a lot had been done, which is not uncommon per say when you have a heavy caseload and someone is in process of being incompetent. But the claim is that she was strangled on or near her bed. 

Alison DeBelder [00:57:49] Can you tell us how it has affected your family to be in this unusual place where you find yourself? 

Jonathan Harriford [00:58:01] It has been the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And I mean that right, no matter what training I've been through in the military and just in my life on this planet, I'm pulled in so many different directions. I'm a husband, I'm a father. I still have to provide for my family, so I have to take care of myself and my own mental health and the grieving process. And I understand that the situation is very unique and there's a select amount of people that will ever be in this position in their lifetime. And, you know, life is very brutal. But my wife and I just celebrated 18 years of marriage yesterday. 

Alison DeBelder [00:58:39] Wow, congratulations. 

Jonathan Harriford [00:58:41] Thank you. And I'll say the last couple years have been extremely excruciatingly painful for one and for her to see me go through this, but then to keep our family unit intact. Because the one thing, as I'm getting older, we never get time back. And I think that gets overlooked and I will come in my wife being an amazing mother to our daughters, and she has been a person to keep me in track as far as every aspect of my life. But, you know, I've worked jobs that I didn't want to work. Coming out of all of this, I didn't really have a set plan coming out of military retirement. The civilian world is very hard, especially for veterans. And just trying to assimilate back into society, let alone somebody like me, that takes on again. When this started, I did not know that it would turn into this arduous of a situation. My whole intent was just to get some solid medical history from my brother to give the amazing doctors that supposedly I would be meeting, you know, a complete history of my brother. I had no intention that it would turn into so many banker's boxes that I have at my house. 

Alison DeBelder [00:59:57] Do you have support beyond your wife and your kids? 

Jonathan Harriford [01:00:01] Yeah. Over the last couple of years, well, my international family, my mom's side of the family. Unfortunately, too, they had to live earlier. I was talking about like social media. They that's how they found out, too. So it was really disheartening. In 2015, I went back over to Europe to spread my mom's ashes over there, and I think the Times Union had done that story at that point in time. So they gave me some newspapers, but I had to go over there and kind of lay out like what we're doing now, like what everything my family had been through and for. I don't know what my mother had told them about her struggles, but they all knew like there was something going on. And, you know, it's just again, we don't really talk about this, and I always try to aim the the stigma trying to reduce that stigma of mental health. But my other family and friends I have, I am blessed with such a great support network across the world and especially those that are always trying to help us think of better places and better treatment methods for my brother. And we have a good core group of people and that is probably what has saved my life emotionally. 

Alison DeBelder [01:00:59] What is your dream for Sean? 

Jonathan Harriford [01:01:04] Man, I love that question. The brother part of me wants him to fully recover, have a life, I mean, there's, you know, ex-girlfriends that still care about him and it's been so sweet for them. But you know, I think about that life stuff of him having a family or maybe an uncle to his kids. I mean, stuff that we talked about as a kid. But I think in this present day, I just think at this point, I would like some fairness in his assessments and whether that is medically and legally. And let's call a spade a spade, and let's look at some actual facts and he's been victimized. But why it's so blows my mind where he is never looked at as a victim. And I mean, I've got video. I mean, stuff that's been in the news, from videos to eyewitnesses that crimes have been committed. And I call on the state attorney is like, are we are we picking and choosing whose victims, who is not? What laws were following them? And what kind of society is that? And then to have the truly tough conversations that need to happen medically and psychiatrically for him. I'll just say there's different treatment modalities that don't get explored, whether that's financially, because the state doesn't want to pay for them or whatever. Not everybody benefits from one method of treatment. Listen, we're all educated professionals, and I will say this as I'm an expert in many fields. We have a saying in my current industry of trust, but verify meaning I trust you initially should trust the most educated people. But you got to verify these facts. You've got to verify this stuff. And what I'll say is be an expert in so many fields. I earn my expertize every day because I have to apply it to the situation that I'm in. I don't get to sit back and say, Oh, I was in the military, like, you got honor grads and the highest people that score the highest GPAs and you know, that kind of thing. Well, I was this in 1985, right? So everything I say is like gold. Now we have to earn it every single day. I come from a culture, a leading mentoring and counseling for the betterment of things. And just because I say so, because I'm a doctor or I'm this or that. That's not a way to live because I think that attitude permeates down the hierarchy. You know, I know we didn't talk about it much today, but in some of these investigations, they're picking and choosing what information's evidence was not evidence. I mean, we really have to come to the table. So when you talk about what I want to see for him, I kind of want to see that stuff. And, you know, if there's any accountability to be had from other people that are victimized them, I definitely want to see that. But I think ultimately, if I got one shot, it would be, let's sit down and look at everything in his life, medically and psychiatrically if we can fix him or quote unquote fix him or help restore him to any capacity. OK, let's do it. If if it is beyond the capable means of Northeast Florida, it's time to look outside and look outside the state and in this country because we are still dual citizenship in other countries. 

Alison DeBelder [01:04:09] Let me ask you this because you've been so diligent about investigating resources available for Sean. But then also your own supports. I know that our listeners will absolutely have among them people who have gone through or are going through something similar. They have a family member who is struggling to find appropriate care. They have somebody that they love who's being civilly committed under the Baker Act over and over again. They have loved ones who are homeless with their illness poorly controlled. Do you have resources now that you're aware of that you would recommend to those people who are in pain right now listening? 

Jonathan Harriford [01:04:58] Oh man, it's so tough and as a professional in this environment, I understood that same thing and so many families reaching out. But it's so hard. I want to say yes, because that's what we all want to say. But when we really take a deep dove around here, it's like it's very scary, you know, and then good, bad or indifferent, I've been labeled, you know, and we don't want to talk about that even. I mean, I always tell families, don't tell anybody, you know me because I'm on the naughty list. You know what? It's just, I'll say, never give up. Do your own research. Bring that research, though, to the medical professionals and have tough but important conversations and be honest about everything like talk about the insurance stuff and talk about all these things because these conversations are kind of guided what's in the benefit of these hospitals and what's in the benefit of them, not for you or your loved one? And just ask, like, if I don't know something I always ask like, Hey, what does this mean? Like, what's a civil commitment package or? OK, so a baker act. Is this long? What happens next is that person. If they're still a danger, they come to live back in my house or they can't do that. So housing options? It's really hard for me going through all of this in the Northeast Florida area and what I continue to face to say, yes, I want to send these people to this facility or that facility, but I know everybody's different. I've probably been labeled just from the way I've approached the situation, but I don't know how else to approach it. I come from that kind of culture in the military of a it's tough, but we got to have these conversations. 

Alison DeBelder [01:06:29] I just wanted to just take a second and let you know that I appreciate the work that you're doing because of course, the way that we met was in your capacity as a Thor councilor, right? 

Jonathan Harriford [01:06:39] Right, right. 

Alison DeBelder [01:06:40] And it's so necessary and it is so special. As you know, when you're desperate for help and then you meet like a chief wildes who gets a thing done for you, right? Or you meet a Jonathan who understands how to connect people to SSI and SSDI. I wanted to make sure that I got the chance to thank you again for that important work and to thank you for being so generous with your story. Because as we talked about before, is, you know, you're not the only one. And it's of course not your obligation. It's nobody's obligation who's living through these difficult things to share it with others. And I get why people would choose not to 100 percent, but it's so amazing that you've been able to do that because it feels even for me who's not super close to it, but has just had to witness it and had to be with families going through. It's really comforting to have the Schindlers story, to have these things out there. And I think it's probably doing a ton of good that you may never actually see just in letting people know that they're not alone. And I wanted to let you know that, of course, there isn't a great answer, but my heart is broken that Sean is going through this and I think about him and my heart's broken, that what your mom went through and that you and your kids are without your mom. And I wanted to let you know that I feel really bad, and I'm sorry that this has happened to you and I'm proud of what you've done with it. It's really important. 

Jonathan Harriford [01:08:05] Oh, thank you. That means so much. You know, I've just approached it this way. I never meant for any of this that I kind of take off in this manner. But you know, we need more kindness in the world. And I like I've expressed to you guys, there's a lot more than meets the eye in this situation, and I'm just here to say that. But I appreciate that Alison and so good to see you and reconnect again because I was like, You're such a bright spot. And there has been bright spots in the middle of all of this and meeting you and linking up with Chris, obviously and and Tara. And there's some other people in the field that we all have great hearts and we all we're all trying to do our best, you know, and I appreciate that the most of this. 

Chris Moser [01:08:44] Trauma and justice is created by Alison DeBelder and Chris Moser and engineered by Chris Higgins. Thanks for listening. To help us out, please subscribe to the podcast. Leave a star rating and review us on Apple Podcasts and share with others who might be interested.